I never said "perfect". It was a little slower then I liked. But I defidently liked the last scene.

Yes Midget I guessed it about half way through. But I wasn't convinced I was correct. That's why the suspense was still there for me.

I knew before the show there was no way they could tie all of the shit they threw at us in an hour episode.

Even if one accepts the idea that the ending was suspenseful (which is difficult to do given your contradictory statements about it), why is that inherently good?

And the "perfect" comment was obviously Mustang Rob's. I thought I made that clear when I quoted him in my response.

_________________

Thinking more about it. I think there was a symbol of that bell ringing when Meadow walked in and showing Tony's meatball face looking at the door.

He's wondering when that bell will toll for him.

In fact, I don't think that bell rang every time other people walked in. I could be wrong.

I also think Chase's overall message was that women can't drive. That's why we saw meadow struggle to park for such a long time.

It's not a contradiction. I said I didn't know. It was just a guess running through my mind.

For God's sake, read your own writing. Obviously you couldn't say for sure that you "knew" how the episode would end, but you did claim to "figure it out half way through". If you figured it out, there's no suspense.

But even if you didn't, why is a suspenseful ending inherently desirable and preferable to any number of other ways the show might've ended?

_________________

TM, you said it. I agree 100%.

Greenie this morning was trying to make a comparison to a short story read to him 30 years ago called "The Lady, or the Tiger?". The purpose of the story was to show ambiguity in humanity, and conundrums. Its ending was not an ending, it was a question; the same thing happened in a wonderful John Sayles movie called "Limbo". In both cases, the entire idea of the story and the narrative arc has to do with not resolving things, but dealing with the open ended questions about life.

So if you're going to say that "The Sopranos" wanted to go for that as well, then it betrayed everything about the show. The mob is about closure. Nothing's ever left on the table. People are "taken care of". To now go back and say, "No we're not going to show you what happens to Tony" is a complete 180 of what the show's direction was--and not only is it not artistic, it's unsatisfactory and it's just another example of David Chase and Terrence Winter's arrogance.

If the show wasn't about closure, then why spend so much time on characters' deaths? To me, it seemed, most of the deaths were cop outs creatively because the writers didn't know where to go with their stories anymore.

That last five minutes of the finale, which admittedly were well shot and gives you a feeling of urgency and anxiety--fell flat in the end.

Bah. Humbug.

I guess I didn't need the bullet through Tony's head to declare it a genious episode like so many did.

I know what I said Midget. I tried to explain why their was still suspense for me. I have no motive to lie about that on a message board. I wasn't convinced that I was correct. I don't know what more to say.

Not half way like I initially said. I knew nothing was gonna happen when that guy walked into the bathroom. I knew that was Chase fucking with us and making us think "God Father".

So there. It was towords the end when I figured it out. Sorry

In my opinion, hearing the gunshot would have been all that was needed. At this point, we are left to argue whether or not this scene was even an attempt on Tony's life.

For years, people had followed the story of Tony Soprano. The payoff was to not know even if this was an attempt on his life. If taken that he wasn't killed, then that scene was the most suspenseful and dramatic buildup for absolutely nothing I have ever seen. If taken that he was killed, it was a letdown due to the fact that there is no definitive evidence that it was even an attempt on his life.

This is not a Picasso. This is not a symphony. This was a tv show. I could make up my own story and make it whatever I want. I watch shows to be surprised by the creativity of professional script writers and directors and actors.


LOST better end much better than this, but I fear it won't.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

But you still haven't answered why the "suspenseful" ending is an inherently good one. It seems like the only way you can justify it is by contrasting it to an alternate ending where Tony "gets a bullet in his head". Sorry, but those aren't the only two options for ending the show. It could've gone in any number of directions if it hadn't lost its narrative perspective a couple seasons ago. It was a bad ending to what had become an intellectually and imaginatively bankrupt show. The fact that we don't know what happens to the characters doesn't improve the finale's imaginative richness. Rather, it simply widens the black hole that became The Sopranos' narrative arc.

_________________

Right. You watch to be surprised. I'll bet most of America was surprised by that.

This is some of the dumbest shit I've ever read on this board. Any fictional text is open to interpretation. Further, in its more imaginative early stages, The Sopranos actually openly encouraged multiple interpretations through experimenting with dream sequences and purposely abstract, inscrutable scenes. For you to suggest that there is ONLY one way to feel about a show is reductive, inconsistent with the show's own aesthetic, and out of touch with the manner in which imaginative works operate.

_________________

Sure Midget. It could have gone in several directions. Another one might have been accepted by you and not others.

Yeah, well, if Tony had jumpeed up on the table and started doing a strip tease while singing "I've Got to Be Me", the audience would've been surprised, too. But that wouldn't have made the ending good. The lack of an ending may have been surprising, but it was also a retreat from all of the larger ideas the show had set in motion from its inception. In abruptly breaking from its narrative and thematic trajectory, the ending was clearly a failure.

_________________

My quibble isn't with a lack of closure so much as it is with the show's refusal to engage with its own main ideas in any sustained way. The whole final couple of seasons had a random quality that grossly undercut its early greatness. Are you under the impression that the final couple of seasons were good?

_________________

The whole ending was a cop-out. David Chase refused to give us any idea of what lies in store for Tony - does he die, is he arrested, does he flip, does life just continue on? Instead, he continued his trend of mailing it in, and ruined the whole show previous to this episode for me. I will never be able to remember the good episodes that the Sopranos had without being reminded of this crap.

_________________
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. ~ Benjamin Franklin

I don't think a shows worth is dependent on its conclusion. It's about the journey for shows like this. Most of you liked this show. They had several conflicts throughout with satisfactory conclusion to many of you.

If you think the "fade to black" meant nothing then the conclusion of the show was Tony won - for now. We just won't be able to see his life any more. I'm fine with that. There were several other messages involved that many have interpretted. But at the core it's that Tony wins.

It's fine if you don't like that. I'm fine with it and thought the show was great for the most part. It was a fun ride that had you thinking.

I think people put too much on the conclusion.

Like I've already said, I don't have a problem with a lack of closure in principle. It's the poorly executed finale--its retreat from its major ideas and meaningful plot--that I found troubling. You seem to be setting yourself up as a champion of narrative ambiguity who opposes a group of closure-obsessed simpletons. But that's not really what the debate is about. You are championing something that is by almost any aesthetic standard a failure.

_________________

Even though it is before my time, would it have made Dallas better to never find out who shot JR and instead leave it up to your imagination?

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

What major ideas? Tony and his crew were dumb mafia guys. Tony is a sociopath who contradicts himself throughout.

The show never had this great set up to a conclusion like you say. That was part of its charm.

like the finale, i don't think this will ever be resolved.

we've all made our points, and i don't think anybody's changing their mind. i've reflected more on the episode, and though i can see more clearly what chase was doing, it doesn't make up for the inconsistencies of the show or the masturbation that was the finale. i stand by my position on the finale--i'm just not using the expletives anymore to describe it...at least not now

What significant imaginative texts don't contradict themselves or at least characters who contradict themselves? It would be hard, if not impossible, for me to name any. Can you? Contradiction, ambiguity, ambivalence and paradox are important aspects of most novels, movies, and ambitious TV shows. If you disagree, show me otherwise.

The show abandoned all kinds of ideas in its final season--questions of Tony's psychological development, his status as a sensitive killer, adulterous family man and patriotic criminal all seemed like they would be important conflicts in determining his fate, but didn't amount to much, if anything. The show just ends without doing more than point out these conflicts, leaving the viewer to wonder what the point of all the sound and fury was.

Additionally, the major conflict between the idea of the mafia as a family and mafia as a business was never fully developed, even when Tony kills Chris, the nephew whom he loves as a son. What, according to the show's own logic, should have been a devastating, life-changing moment for Tony was treated as something casual, like Tony roughing up an upstart street tough trying to cut in on one of his illicit businesses. The show established the Tony-Chris relationship as a crucial one, but ended it without a second thought. This was a betrayal of the audience and a betrayal of its own ideas, as was the series finale and the last couple of seasons as a whole.

_________________

It's funny that you label me the control freak when you're the one telling others not to question or criticize a TV show. I guess we all need to sit down and listen for our answers from the great David Chase, eh? I can't believe I have to explain this to someone, but people have been discussing, debating, and criticizing artwork since artwork itself has existed. Criticism is, after all, part of the process that helps define a "masterpiece" as such. Your ignorance in this regard is almost as unfortunate as David Chase's creative fecklessness.

_________________

It is clear that Tony considered Mafia a business only. Not a family. He never cried or showed any emotion after any of his guys died. He killed his cousin Tony. He killed Christopher. He never cried for silvio or his brother in law. He moved on as if nothing happened.

He wanted sympathy for his mother and lack of love yet he didn't have sympathy for his son and his problems. He called him weak. Chris was weak because he couldn't cure his demons.

Tony was selfish and only cared about himself and his problems. His only goal was survival.

Panther Pisa and Tall Midget,
Do you not realize this is the internet? You aren't supposed to argue with big words and thought out sentences. Arguing on the internet is all about gay jokes, telling the other person to get out of their moms basement, and bragging about your hot girlfriend.

There is no room on the internet for your kind of dialogue.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Tall Midget is my hero

You're my hero.