Bernstein went after Hub yesterday when the topic of Ray Lewis came up, saying that he would "run circles" around Butkus. I've heard Bernstein and Goff say on multiple occasions that the caliber of athlete currently in the NFL is eons better than anything before the mid/late 90'. I particularly remember Goff saying that current NFL GM's would take one look at Singleterry's 40 time and he'd either be a defensive end, or out of the league altogether.

For the record: I tend to agree with them. I don't think a lot of the 50's/60's/70's and 80's era players would sniff a current NFL roster. Partly due to change in the game and it's rules, but also due to the fact that the system which funnels players into the NFL is so much bigger and scientific.

Here's my problem: Bernstein says the greatest baseball player of all time ("By a mile") is Babe Ruth. Babe Ruth was on his death bed when Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier. There was no low and high single A, AA, AAA, Arizona Fall League's, Dominican compounds, Venezuelan Winter Ball, etc.

Those guys were all 5'6 and throwing 75 MPH. Show Honus Wagner a Verlander curveball after a 100 MPH fastball and we'll see how good those old goofs were. The level of competition was 1/1,000,000th of what it currently is in the MLB.

Kevin Goldstein has said on multiple occasions that if an average roster from 1960 played an average roster from 2012, the current team would absolutely wang-whip them.

Does this drive anyone else nuts? (yarr)

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unga bunga fast track

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That's just not true. Walter Johnson threw as hard as anyone in the game today. He just didn't have an electronic scoreboard to post lies like "104!!!!!!!!" to get the crowd pumped up. Babe Ruth in his prime was more athletic than Barry Bonds. He wasn't fat or small or slow. It's just that most pictures we see of him were from the end of his career and World Series in the 30s.



And Butkus was bigger and faster than Ray Lewis so I'm not sure how exactly Lewis was going to run rings around him. Maybe on a motorized scooter. Lewis does have better knife skills than Butkus ever did.

You're right in that the game of football has changed drastically. Offensive linemen are fat and tall and not very athletic. They don't have to be quick or get out as lead blockers on a sweep. They're simply asked to form a wall around a passing quarterback. So defensive linemen have gotten bigger to counter that. But along with getting larger and stronger, they've gotten slower and less athletic.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I have a hard time believing this just based on the dilution of today's talent. Baseball was the sport of the nation and there were half the teams.

I'm by no means a football expert but just watching a couple of youtube highlight videos of Butkus it seems he was very fast. Catching up to running backs and great side-to-side speed and an incredible knack for where the ball is. His knack for the ball is also evident in his 22 INT's in 9 years.

Brooks Robinson would be a fumbling oaf in the field today, Sandy Koufax would get lit up, and Hank Aaron would only have warning track power.

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

Brooks Robinson would be a fumbling oaf in the field today, Sandy Koufax would get lit up, and Hank Aaron would only have warning track power.[/quote]


that is an ignorant statement. a lot of the parks were bigger. koufax pitched against an era with a lot of HOF. who's in today's game you can say that guy is a HOF hitter like then. Brook could pick it. defense is defense.

I'm pretty sure he wasn't being serious.

Dick Butkus would have never made the NFL after being coached by Ron Zook. In fact, instead of going to CVS he would have probably lived in NWI where, upon not graduating from high school he would have built up a nice career as the muscle for a meth outfit.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Many people (including me) believe Michael Jordan is the best basketball player of all time. Others believe it is Kareem. I'm sure many will feel LeBron is in due time.

It has nothing to do with ageism. It has everything to do with who was great first.

Bernsy's a racist not an ageist.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Curious, how do you know Walter Johnson could throw that fast?

And are you saying that lineman from the 50s and 60s were more athletic than lineman today?

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

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2018
#ExtendLafleur
10 More Wins

OH I'M FUCKING SERIOUS YOU MOTHERFUCKER

Amazing how the human body has been genetically improved over the past 3-4 generations. Must be all that selective breeding. Or maybe is it the cloning?

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

There is plenty of anecdotal evidence to support it. No one would argue that Buehrle and Maddux threw harder than Feller and Rusie. There have always been fireballers and soft-tossers. bernstein would probably point out that therr weren't guys coming into games in the late innings throwing 100. That's correct. But not because guys like that didn't exist, but because the couldn't make a team. The philosophy was different. Nobody carried a pitcher to retire a single lefty.

And of course linemen of the 50s and 60s were more athletic. Jerry Kramer was an athlete. Ted Washington was a big fat guy. There's no difference between Doug Atkins and Julius Peppers. Peppers can afford to play heavier because of the style.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Come on, Ted Washington is the example for the modern day lineman?

That is a stretch.

No difference between Peppers and Atkins?

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

I'm truly beginning to believe that you actually Mayor Rod Craig.

They're not cloning sheep, it's the same sheep. I saw Harry Blackstone do that on the Dean Martin Show.

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Good people drink good beer - Hunter S. Thompson

<º)))><

Waiting for the time when I can finally say
That this has all been wonderful, but now I'm on my way

Washington was probably better than any current Bear interior lineman on either side of the ball. Do you think Garza is better than Mike Pyle? That's fantasyland.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

JORR, I appreciate a lot of what you have to say in these conversations and I do think you help bring some light to the fact that we so often assume modern day is better than the past. But I think you go too far the other direction at times.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Well considering none of those players were on HGH or going to Germany to get platelets spun into a centrifuge and then injected back into their injuries that is going to be a factor. If you could take all of the training advantages legal and otherwise from todays players maybe things would be closer.

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Those players in the 80's were juicing, though.

Not the 1880's when JORR saw Walter Johnson throwing 114 MPH heat

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Babe Ruth and his contemporaries were the best athletes ever because they evidently played the game in the equivalent of barnyard slop.

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I try my best not to do that. I try to look at the players objectively. I'm guessing if you asked O'Bradovich about PeppersAtkins he'd say something like, "LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING. PEPPERS IS A DAMN GOOD FOOTBALL PLAYER BUT HE COULDN'T CARRY BIG DOUG'S JOCK!!! He'd be as wrong as bernstein but the other way.

Lance Armstrong covered the Tour faster than those old time guys who rolled into Patis smoking cigarettes, but I don't think he was a better cyclist.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Jerry Kramer and Ted Washington are silly comparisons. Compare a guy like Jake Thomas or Jake Long to Jerry Kramer. Jerry Kramer was definitely not more athletic than those guys.

I'd also put JJ Watt's athleticism up against any DE you can find.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Not really. The style of the game has dictated the types of players you have on the respective lines.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

JORR, so the style of game argument does not work in basketball, but it works for you in football?

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."