Harden check in

SomeGuy · **Posted:** Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:20 pm

rogers park bryan wrote:

The Bulls were written off as championship contenders but anyone who said they wouldnt make the playoffs was exaggerating for effect or downright dumb.

Pippen, Armstrong, Grant, and Kukoc were not missing the playoffs.

Go lay in a busy street.

FavreFan · **Posted:** Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:22 pm

RFDC wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

Will you at least admit that you're being sort of unfair to Pip? He had one year to prove it in his prime(two if you count 2000 as the very tail end of his prime. I dont).

Sure it is being a little unfair to Pip. I love Pippen, he is one of my all time favorite players. But when I look at things objectively no matter when you take Jordan off those teams I just cannot see Pip leading them to a championship.

Well if you take Jordan off those teams you have enough cap space to add another superstar. I agree Pippen wouldn't have taken them to a title with the same cast and without Jordan. I think you could make a fair case that Jordan never wins one title without Pippen either. I think if you give Pippen a team that actually has a chance of winning a championship, he'll win it for you.

The Original Kid Cairo · **Posted:** Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:24 pm

SomeGuy wrote:

RFDC wrote:

I am not saying he is a bad player, he is an EXCELLENT player. But I just think he needs to be the sidekick instead of the man. He is 2013 Scottie Pippen. Pippen couldn't win a title as the best player on a team and neither will Harden.

He got shafted on the MVP and brought that 93-94 Bulls team to 55 wins and the Conference Finals where they were legitimately fucked by the refs. That team was bad and weren't even supposed to sniff the playoffs. Pippen brought them there and proved he was a legit star and a leader.

He would turn around and bring another bad bulls team to the playoffs the year after.

SomeGuy, I appreciate the Pip love as he's my favorite player of all time and I also believe he should have been in the MVP discussion in '94, but to say that they weren't supposed to sniff the playoffs may be overstating things a bit. At worst, they were expected to be 4th best in the East behind New York, Cleveland, and Indiana, who were all poised to step forward in Jordan's absence.

I'm not saying the '94 Bulls didn't exceed expectations, because they certainly did, but they were still a good team without Jordan. They pretty much had the same roster from the previous year (minus Jordan), but with the addition of Toni Kukoc who stepped in and played well immediately. Grant, Armstrong, and Pippen all stepped up. Pete Myers was a good defensive guard. They still got production from Scott Williams, Stacey King, and Will Purdue, along with the additions of Longley, Kerr, and Wennington. The only two players left on the roster who had nothing left in the tank were Paxson and Cartwright.

SomeGuy · **Posted:** Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:24 pm

FavreFan wrote:

RFDC wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

Will you at least admit that you're being sort of unfair to Pip? He had one year to prove it in his prime(two if you count 2000 as the very tail end of his prime. I dont).

Sure it is being a little unfair to Pip. I love Pippen, he is one of my all time favorite players. But when I look at things objectively no matter when you take Jordan off those teams I just cannot see Pip leading them to a championship.

Well if you take Jordan off those teams you have enough cap space to add another superstar. I agree Pippen wouldn't have taken them to a title with the same cast and without Jordan. I think you could make a fair case that Jordan never wins one title without Pippen either. I think if you give Pippen a team that actually has a chance of winning a championship, he'll win it for you.

Good point. Pippen didn't take that 93-94 team to the championship (he got one historically bad ref call from it) but he got damn fucking close. But take into account Jordan wasn't taking any teams to the championship without Pippen.

The Original Kid Cairo · **Posted:** Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:29 pm

I will say this in response to RFDC though:

I agree with FavreFan when I say that aside from '94, Scottie never got another opportunity to be the star of a team, so the sample size is way too small to just dismiss him as a guy who couldn't lead a team to a championship. Comments like that should be reserved for guys like Dominique Wilkins, Chris Webber, or pre-Houston Clyde Drexler, who led their teams for several years and couldn't get it done.

SomeGuy · **Posted:** Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:30 pm

The Original Kid Cairo wrote:

SomeGuy wrote:

RFDC wrote:

I am not saying he is a bad player, he is an EXCELLENT player. But I just think he needs to be the sidekick instead of the man. He is 2013 Scottie Pippen. Pippen couldn't win a title as the best player on a team and neither will Harden.

He got shafted on the MVP and brought that 93-94 Bulls team to 55 wins and the Conference Finals where they were legitimately fucked by the refs. That team was bad and weren't even supposed to sniff the playoffs. Pippen brought them there and proved he was a legit star and a leader.

He would turn around and bring another bad bulls team to the playoffs the year after.

SomeGuy, I appreciate the Pip love as he's my favorite player of all time and I also believe he should have been in the MVP discussion in '94, but to say that they weren't supposed to sniff the playoffs may be overstating things a bit. At worst, they were expected to be 4th best in the East behind New York, Cleveland, and Indiana, who were all poised to step forward in Jordan's absence.

I'm not saying the '94 Bulls didn't exceed expectations, because they certainly did, but they were still a good team without Jordan. They pretty much had the same roster from the previous year (minus Jordan), but with the addition of Toni Kukoc who stepped in and played well immediately. Grant, Armstrong, and Pippen all stepped up. Pete Myers was a good defensive guard. They still got production from Scott Williams, Stacey King, and Will Purdue, along with the additions of Longley, Kerr, and Wennington. The only two players left on the roster who had nothing left in the tank were Paxson and Cartwright.

Was it the Jedi Knight gifs I posted? This is madness!

Yeah, I get it. But the team didn't have histories greatest player on it. And Pippen nearly (I realize it's horseshoes and hand-grenades) took them to NBA Finals, he had a monster season that year and proved he was and could be the man. Let us be honest, that phantom call was one of histories worst, yeah yeah it's could shoulda woulda but I believed he showed he could do it.

And without Jordan that was probably the only year he could have done it barring any big names coming to the Bulls to play a true #2.

rogers park bryan · **Joined:** Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm **Posts:** 81625

SomeGuy wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

The Bulls were written off as championship contenders but anyone who said they wouldnt make the playoffs was exaggerating for effect or downright dumb.

Pippen, Armstrong, Grant, and Kukoc were not missing the playoffs.

Go lay in a busy street.

SomeGuy · **Posted:** Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:32 pm

rogers park bryan wrote:

SomeGuy wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

The Bulls were written off as championship contenders but anyone who said they wouldnt make the playoffs was exaggerating for effect or downright dumb.

Pippen, Armstrong, Grant, and Kukoc were not missing the playoffs.

Go lay in a busy street.

That's the best you could do? Don't worry, I looked all over for that GIF as well.

Nothin' not even "Place at the Table" or anything.

RFDC · **Joined:** Sun May 11, 2008 4:11 pm **Posts:** 57241

FavreFan wrote:

RFDC wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

Will you at least admit that you're being sort of unfair to Pip? He had one year to prove it in his prime(two if you count 2000 as the very tail end of his prime. I dont).

Sure it is being a little unfair to Pip. I love Pippen, he is one of my all time favorite players. But when I look at things objectively no matter when you take Jordan off those teams I just cannot see Pip leading them to a championship.

Well if you take Jordan off those teams you have enough cap space to add another superstar. I agree Pippen wouldn't have taken them to a title with the same cast and without Jordan. I think you could make a fair case that Jordan never wins one title without Pippen either. I think if you give Pippen a team that actually has a chance of winning a championship, he'll win it for you.

Sure if you put Pippen with another superstar where he can excel in his perfect role they sure you get another championship.

And you are probably right Jordan probably never wins one without Pippen (or someone else of that caliber).

Back to Pippen, I just don't think Pippen had "it" to lead a team as its best player to a title. Jordan had it. Magic had it. Kobe has it. Maybe Harden has it and I just haven't seen it. But so far I gotta say no.

rogers park bryan · **Joined:** Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm **Posts:** 81625

SomeGuy wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

SomeGuy wrote:

Go lay in a busy street.

That's the best you could do? Don't worry, I looked all over for that GIF as well.

Nothin' not even "Place at the Table" or anything.

I had to youtube it and then save a screen shot

There should be way more pictures of that. Bad job, internet.

The Original Kid Cairo · **Posted:** Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:35 pm

rogers park bryan wrote:

I had to youtube it and then save a screen shot

You're very resourceful and extremely committed.

rogers park bryan · **Joined:** Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm **Posts:** 81625

The Original Kid Cairo wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

I had to youtube it and then save a screen shot

You're very resourceful and extremely committed.

I recently found a site that makes it easy to photoshop and as a side bonus you can upload any pic online without having to sign up for anything

FavreFan · **Posted:** Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:36 pm

RFDC wrote:

Back to Pippen, I just don't think Pippen had "it" to lead a team as its best player to a title. Jordan had it. Magic had it. Kobe has it. Maybe Harden has it and I just haven't seen it. But so far I gotta say no.

To be fair, it sounds like you have a guilty until proven innocent view on who has "it". Im not saying thats wrong. But can Harden do anything to change your mind other than actually forcibly changing your mind by winning a title as the best player?

Edit: Did Charles Barkley have "it"? If he did, what showed you that he did, but Pippen didnt?

The Original Kid Cairo · **Posted:** Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:39 pm

FavreFan wrote:

Well if you take Jordan off those teams you have enough cap space to add another superstar. I agree Pippen wouldn't have taken them to a title with the same cast and without Jordan. I think you could make a fair case that Jordan never wins one title without Pippen either. I think if you give Pippen a team that actually has a chance of winning a championship, he'll win it for you.

Had the Pippen for Kemp trade actually gone through in '94, I could certainly see Scottie winning a title with the Sonics at some point, perhaps that year (no disrespect to the Rockets).

FavreFan · **Posted:** Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:41 pm

The Original Kid Cairo wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

Well if you take Jordan off those teams you have enough cap space to add another superstar. I agree Pippen wouldn't have taken them to a title with the same cast and without Jordan. I think you could make a fair case that Jordan never wins one title without Pippen either. I think if you give Pippen a team that actually has a chance of winning a championship, he'll win it for you.

Had the Pippen for Kemp trade actually gone through in '94, I could certainly see Scottie winning a title with the Sonics at some point.

I agree. And the Bulls/Sonics Finals probably still would've happened and would've been epic. I'm glad that trade never happened though.

RFDC · **Joined:** Sun May 11, 2008 4:11 pm **Posts:** 57241

FavreFan wrote:

RFDC wrote:

Back to Pippen, I just don't think Pippen had "it" to lead a team as its best player to a title. Jordan had it. Magic had it. Kobe has it. Maybe Harden has it and I just haven't seen it. But so far I gotta say no.

To be fair, it sounds like you have a guilty until proven innocent view on who has "it". Im not saying thats wrong. But can Harden do anything to change your mind other than actually forcibly changing your mind by winning a title as the best player?

Edit: Did Charles Barkley have "it"? If he did, what showed you that he did, but Pippen didnt?

Hmm, my first thought is no Harden cannot do anything to change my mind other than winning a title in that situation. But that is probably not fair. But I am not sure what the answer would be otherwise.

I don't think Barkley had it. If he did I think they would have won that series vs. the Bulls. Barkley had a ton of talent around him and still could not pull it off.

The Original Kid Cairo · **Posted:** Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:44 pm

RFDC wrote:

I don't think Barkley had it. If he did I think they would have won that series vs. the Bulls. Barkley had a ton of talent around him and still could not pull it off.

That series is so weird to me because it's probably the biggest example of "the Jordan factor" of all 6 titles that the Bulls won. Phoenix from top to bottom was the better team and even during the course of that series, after falling 0-2 at home, still turned things around and swung the momentum back by Game 6. I still have no idea how the Bulls beat them, actually. Perhaps it was Ceballos being injured. I don't know.

How do you win a game scoring 12 points in the fourth quarter (9 by one guy)? It amazes me really.

FavreFan · **Posted:** Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:46 pm

RFDC wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

RFDC wrote:

Back to Pippen, I just don't think Pippen had "it" to lead a team as its best player to a title. Jordan had it. Magic had it. Kobe has it. Maybe Harden has it and I just haven't seen it. But so far I gotta say no.

To be fair, it sounds like you have a guilty until proven innocent view on who has "it". Im not saying thats wrong. But can Harden do anything to change your mind other than actually forcibly changing your mind by winning a title as the best player?

Edit: Did Charles Barkley have "it"? If he did, what showed you that he did, but Pippen didnt?

Hmm, my first thought is no Harden cannot do anything to change my mind other than winning a title in that situation. But that is probably not fair. But I am not sure what the answer would be otherwise.

I don't think Barkley had it. If he did I think they would have won that series vs. the Bulls. Barkley had a ton of talent around him and still could not pull it off.

It's not like he had a disappointing Finals though. He went toe to toe with Jordan and just wasn't as good. That's not his fault IMO.

Im guessing you would say Durant has "it". If so, why does he have it, but some of these other all time greats like Charles and Pippen didnt?

Did Jason Kidd have it? I think he maximized the talent on those Nets teams and simply werent as good as the Spurs or Lakers at the time.

By the way, Im not just fucking with you if thats how it comes across. Genuinely curious on how you evaluate players in this situation.

FavreFan · **Posted:** Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:48 pm

The Original Kid Cairo wrote:

RFDC wrote:

I don't think Barkley had it. If he did I think they would have won that series vs. the Bulls. Barkley had a ton of talent around him and still could not pull it off.

That series is so weird to me because it's probably the biggest example of "the Jordan factor" of all 6 titles that the Bulls won. Phoenix from top to bottom was the better team and even during the course of that series, after falling 0-2 at home, still turned things around and swung the momentum back by Game 6. I still have no idea how the Bulls beat them, actually. Perhaps it was Ceballos being injured. I don't know.

How do you win a game scoring 12 points in the fourth quarter (9 by one guy)? It amazes me really.

That series is one of the first sporting memories for me that I clearly remember. I remember thinking we had Pip and MJ and they had everybody else and being worried we were gonna lose the series. I remember my dad telling me "Dont worry, Jordan doesn't lose these series anymore."

RFDC · **Joined:** Sun May 11, 2008 4:11 pm **Posts:** 57241

The Original Kid Cairo wrote:

RFDC wrote:

I don't think Barkley had it. If he did I think they would have won that series vs. the Bulls. Barkley had a ton of talent around him and still could not pull it off.

That series is so weird to me because it's probably the biggest example of "the Jordan factor" of all 6 titles that the Bulls won. Phoenix from top to bottom was the better team and even during the course of that series, after falling 0-2 at home, still turned things around and swung the momentum back by Game 6. I still have no idea how the Bulls beat them, actually. Perhaps it was Ceballos being injured. I don't know.

How do you win a game scoring 12 points in the fourth quarter (9 by one guy)? It amazes me really.

Yeah it was crazy and the only series I was legitimately worried about as a Bulls fan. But I think it just shows that you put Jordan in the finals even against a better team and he is just not losing. It is why he is the greatest of all time. And it is also why I think that Jordan and the Bulls would have beaten Hakeem and the Rockets if Jordan had not retired. Jordan was just not losing in the finals.

SomeGuy · **Posted:** Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:49 pm

RFDC wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

RFDC wrote:

Back to Pippen, I just don't think Pippen had "it" to lead a team as its best player to a title. Jordan had it. Magic had it. Kobe has it. Maybe Harden has it and I just haven't seen it. But so far I gotta say no.

To be fair, it sounds like you have a guilty until proven innocent view on who has "it". Im not saying thats wrong. But can Harden do anything to change your mind other than actually forcibly changing your mind by winning a title as the best player?

Edit: Did Charles Barkley have "it"? If he did, what showed you that he did, but Pippen didnt?

Hmm, my first thought is no Harden cannot do anything to change my mind other than winning a title in that situation. But that is probably not fair. But I am not sure what the answer would be otherwise.

I don't think Barkley had it. If he did I think they would have won that series vs. the Bulls. Barkley had a ton of talent around him and still could not pull it off.

That's a great point. Barkley had a ton of talent around him on the Suns and Rockets, right? He did have some injuries with the Suns but still had a monster post-season. There was Clyde, Barkley and The Dream on the Rockets, got swept before the Finals, though.

And Kid, I totally forgot about Pippen/Kemp stuff. Pippen def. wins a title or two in Seattle.

Douchebag · **Joined:** Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:03 pm **Posts:** 43572

SomeGuy wrote:

RFDC wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

RFDC wrote:

Back to Pippen, I just don't think Pippen had "it" to lead a team as its best player to a title. Jordan had it. Magic had it. Kobe has it. Maybe Harden has it and I just haven't seen it. But so far I gotta say no.

To be fair, it sounds like you have a guilty until proven innocent view on who has "it". Im not saying thats wrong. But can Harden do anything to change your mind other than actually forcibly changing your mind by winning a title as the best player?

Edit: Did Charles Barkley have "it"? If he did, what showed you that he did, but Pippen didnt?

Hmm, my first thought is no Harden cannot do anything to change my mind other than winning a title in that situation. But that is probably not fair. But I am not sure what the answer would be otherwise.

I don't think Barkley had it. If he did I think they would have won that series vs. the Bulls. Barkley had a ton of talent around him and still could not pull it off.

That's a great point. Barkley had a ton of talent around him on the Suns and Rockets, right? He did have some injuries with the Suns but still had a monster post-season. There was Clyde, Barkley and The Dream on the Rockets, got swept before the Finals, though.

And Kid, I totally forgot about Pippen/Kemp stuff. Pippen def. wins a title or two in Seattle.

That Barkley/Clyde/Hakeem Rockets team was older than dirt.

RFDC · **Joined:** Sun May 11, 2008 4:11 pm **Posts:** 57241

FavreFan wrote:

RFDC wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

RFDC wrote:

Back to Pippen, I just don't think Pippen had "it" to lead a team as its best player to a title. Jordan had it. Magic had it. Kobe has it. Maybe Harden has it and I just haven't seen it. But so far I gotta say no.

To be fair, it sounds like you have a guilty until proven innocent view on who has "it". Im not saying thats wrong. But can Harden do anything to change your mind other than actually forcibly changing your mind by winning a title as the best player?

Edit: Did Charles Barkley have "it"? If he did, what showed you that he did, but Pippen didnt?

Hmm, my first thought is no Harden cannot do anything to change my mind other than winning a title in that situation. But that is probably not fair. But I am not sure what the answer would be otherwise.

I don't think Barkley had it. If he did I think they would have won that series vs. the Bulls. Barkley had a ton of talent around him and still could not pull it off.

It's not like he had a disappointing Finals though. He went toe to toe with Jordan and just wasn't as good. That's not his fault IMO.

Im guessing you would say Durant has "it". If so, why does he have it, but some of these other all time greats like Charles and Pippen didnt?

Did Jason Kidd have it? I think he maximized the talent on those Nets teams and simply werent as good as the Spurs or Lakers at the time.

By the way, Im not just fucking with you if thats how it comes across. Genuinely curious on how you evaluate players in this situation.

I am not convinced Durant has it. I am on the fence with him. I think when it is all said and done he maybe like a Barkley, an all time great player that just could not get it done in the finals.

Kidd did not have it.

The Original Kid Cairo · **Posted:** Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:54 pm

Douchebag wrote:

That Barkley/Clyde/Hakeem Rockets team was older than dirt.

Mario Elie was their fourth best player. Think about that for a minute. They weren't winning anything.

FavreFan · **Posted:** Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:54 pm

RFDC wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

It's not like he had a disappointing Finals though. He went toe to toe with Jordan and just wasn't as good. That's not his fault IMO.

Im guessing you would say Durant has "it". If so, why does he have it, but some of these other all time greats like Charles and Pippen didnt?

Did Jason Kidd have it? I think he maximized the talent on those Nets teams and simply werent as good as the Spurs or Lakers at the time.

By the way, Im not just fucking with you if thats how it comes across. Genuinely curious on how you evaluate players in this situation.

I am not convinced Durant has it. I am on the fence with him. I think when it is all said and done he maybe like a Barkley, an all time great player that just could not get it done in the finals.

Kidd did not have it.

Do Pierce or KG have it? One of them technically has to, right?

Chauncey Billups had it, but Kidd didn't?

This is starting to look pretty arbitary, right?

RFDC · **Joined:** Sun May 11, 2008 4:11 pm **Posts:** 57241

FavreFan wrote:

RFDC wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

It's not like he had a disappointing Finals though. He went toe to toe with Jordan and just wasn't as good. That's not his fault IMO.

Im guessing you would say Durant has "it". If so, why does he have it, but some of these other all time greats like Charles and Pippen didnt?

Did Jason Kidd have it? I think he maximized the talent on those Nets teams and simply werent as good as the Spurs or Lakers at the time.

By the way, Im not just fucking with you if thats how it comes across. Genuinely curious on how you evaluate players in this situation.

I am not convinced Durant has it. I am on the fence with him. I think when it is all said and done he maybe like a Barkley, an all time great player that just could not get it done in the finals.

Kidd did not have it.

Do Pierce or KG have it? One of them technically has to, right?

Chauncey Billups had it, but Kidd didn't?

This is starting to look pretty arbitary, right?

Of course. But aren't all opinions arbitrary?

Pierce has it IMO. KG was not winning one without him or someone like him.

I don't think Billups had it either and I don't think anyone on that Piston team had it. They were the exception to the rule, just a damn good team that played as a unit and found a way to win it.

long time guy · **Joined:** Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:10 am **Posts:** 31948

rogers park bryan wrote:

Harden is having a good year, but it didnt help that he was absolutely horrid in the Finals last year.

Agreed he may have been the single biggest reason that they did not win last year

The Original Kid Cairo · **Posted:** Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:06 pm

Yeah, it's one thing to play below par, but Harden's poor shooting and defense took them out of games.

FavreFan · **Posted:** Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:09 pm

I just think it's interesting point of view. Im more optimistic about most players upside I guess.

I think I started changing the way I view players in 2011. Prior to 2011, Dirk only had 1 game in his career that would've let me to believe he had it in him, and then the 2011 postseason happened. It made me start this thread, viewtopic.php?f=91&t=58981 , before the NBA Finals even started. You could see recognize the career changing postseason even while it was happening. It made me start thinking that rather than blaming Dirk for coming up small, it was probably more a matter of he just wasn't as good as Duncan or Shaq in his prime. That's not his fault necessarily, and if the Mavs never acquire Tyson Chandler then Dirk goes down on what Barkley calls The Shit List, the list of great players who weren't great enough to win a championship. And that clearly would've been untrue. It was just that Dirk never had a team that was good enough around him. I think the same can be said of almost any all time great player who didn't win a championship. Except Karl Malone.

Curious Hair · **Posted:** Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:09 pm

The Original Kid Cairo wrote:

Douchebag wrote:

That Barkley/Clyde/Hakeem Rockets team was older than dirt.

Mario Elie was their fourth best player. Think about that for a minute. They weren't winning anything.

His injury while attempting a dump couldn't have come at a worse time.

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