It's cool JORR just yanking yer chain a little.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

This is the comment I was referring to



There seems to be a lot missing there from the bag of what makes the Cubs dominant

Well, okay, what do you think makes them "dominant"? It's obviously not anything the players do on the field, right? What is it? Do people like the uniform? The logo? What do you think it is?

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Part of it is history.

Anyone who was born after 1984 knows the Cubs are the team in Chicago, then there is also the White Sox.
Because ESPN plays all their games.
Because every move they make is put under a microscope.
Because they are a pop culture staple (How many movies/tv shows/ songs have mentioned the Cubs and their history of losing?)
Because every sport has a handful of teams that are landmark teams (Cowboys, Packers, Bears, Raiders, Lakers, Celtics, etc )and the Cubs are one of them. These teams usually stay as the landmark teams.

Also, the White Sox constant P.R. mistakes play a big role.


Also, the park and neighborhood play a role.

You think that would all fade without the park and neighborhood. I dont.

That is mostly correct, except that from 1990 thru the Strike, there was one team in Chicago-- the White Sox. During the 'Good Guys Wear Black' era they were one of the most popular teams in baseball. The Cubs were barely an afterthought.

Then the strike, the white flag trade, and clown shoes manager happened, while Sammy Sosa started jacking HRs and the tables turned.

And ESPN doesn't play nearly as many Cubs games as they did from 03-08 because they are very bad right now.

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This is wildly inaccurate. The Cubs were never an afterthought.

Ill bet ESPN showed more of their games in that period than the White Sox.

Good Guys Were Black was not an ERA.

The Sox were good then, and they probably closed the gap a bit, but to say the Sox were more popular is just not true.

No, actually its true. New Stadium, one of the best right handed hitters ever, a Cy Young winning pitcher, and a playoff appearance were things the Cubs simply could not compete with in the early 90s. It only lasted 3-4 seasons, but still. 93-94 was the closest the Sox had come to taking over Chicago. Maybe even more so than in 2005.

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Not really

They maybe moved from 20% of the city to 30%

It hasnt been close since 84

Oh and the Cubs went to the playoffs in 89 and they had a Cy young in the early 90's who was better than the Sox guy.

Yes really.

Higher than 30% in 1993. ALCS, Bo Jackson, Frank Thomas, Ventura, Black Jack...

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Very good point here, I grew up in the quad cities as a Cub fan. But during this 3 year stretch as an early teenager, I followed both teams. Frank Thomas was legit and was my favorite player during my youth.

BUT... the popularity growth of the white sox here wasn't about crossover. I think most of the following during this time like both teams. At least for me it was. I never rooted against the Cubs, just for the sox.

Frank, its just not true.

The White Sox have not been more popular than the Cubs in our lives.

Nobody cared about Frank Thomas. More people disliked him than anything.

The Cubs outdrew the Contending Powerhouse Cy Young MVP loaded new stadium White Sox in 1993 with about 10,000 less seats.

You didn't care about Frank Thomas because you were a Cubs fan. I'm sorry if you can't recognize that there was a very brief time in the early 90s (and in 2005) where the White Sox were THE team in Chicago. For the other 80% of my lifetime, its been the Cubs.

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I loved Frank Thomas and followed his career very closely

It doesnt matter how many times you say it, its just not true.


You listed a million reasons why they SHOULD HAVE been more popular, but they werent.

Which is why the Cubs outdrew them every year.

I don't remember kids wearing White Sox stuff in 1993. I do remember Cubs stuff.

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And also outdrew the best team in baseball White Sox in 1994

Bryan is right in that the Cubs have always been more popular since 1984. They Sox may have drawn more in the first year in the new park but I'm not even sure about that.

That's the whole point, the Cub success isn't based on winning or good teams. It's based on other ancillary things like that ballpark.

If they move out of the city that all changes. I'm sure some guys here have out-of-town clients who come in on business and want to see a game at Wrigley. Not a Cub game, mind you, but a game at Wrigley. The Cubs just happen to play there. Now why would a downtown businessman buy a skybox in a comfortable but unspecial ballpark in Rosemont when he can buy one probably cheaper a couple miles away in another comfortable and less than special park? Those clients aren't going to be dying to get to Rosemont.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

They outdrew the Cubs in 91 and 92. Then they stupidly won the division in 93 so the fans were pissed and went to Cub's games instead that year.

DAT'S EXACTLY WRONG! Dey got a Gibson's an stuff!

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I'm starting to get the impression that you think that nothing exists out of the Chicago city limits. If being in Chicago was this gold mine of customers the White Sox wouldn't have such poor attendance.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

It's not that severe, but I believe that to flee to the suburbs at this point in time would be to be on the wrong side of history. People in my generation (probably yours, too; we're near-ish the same age) want to live in cities -- not just for a spell in their twenties, but in the long term. Maybe they won't live booze-soaked existences in Wrigleyville forever, but they'll be closer to the Loop than to New Lenox.

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The Sox are their own worst enemy. They've created their own suburb within Bridgeport and tried to separate themselves from their neighborhood rather than incorporating themselves into it. Their goal is to get you onto their property and off of it and back onto a highway with as little hassle as possible.

That's why it's so laughable when someone talks about the park being in a "bad area". Even if we talk about the "projects" that are still lingering nearby, most fans will never interact with anyone who lives there. It would be like saying Disneyworld is in a bad area because when you get in the swamps outside the park there are some toothless hillbillies that look like they're on the road crew from Deliverance living there.

Finally, there's a reason why you can buy a four bedroom house in Gurnee for less than it costs for a studio apartment downtown.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

I'm not convinced that is true. The suburbs popped up in massive numbers for a reason. Those reasons didn't suddenly change. It's currently quite popular to move to certain parts of Chicago. However, I doubt when those people have 3 kids they'll be so inclined to stay.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

You'll still have people moving out to the burbs, yes, but fewer, and not quite so far. It's hard to live in the McMansion badlands of Will County with $4.10 gas.

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If you are going to pick one of the most expensive areas in the city you should pick one of the most expensive suburbs.

There is a reason why the trains are packed with people and the expressways are packed with people driving into the city to work and then heading back to the suburbs too.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

yeah it's called overpopulation.

nobody needs to move from the city to the suburbs. they all procreate after graduating college of dupage and load up barleycorn's in schaumberg every weekend.

The mentality is to move to the suburbs to get a fourth bedroom in that McMansion in Bloomingdale for the same money you'd spend to get three in a Portage Park bungalow so you can fill it with junk.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

What has changed though? For a long time, people were leaving cities. Currently, the trend is that people are moving back into certain neighborhoods. In a few years, that will change again. It's all cyclical.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

...or it's to have the option of sending your kid to public school rather than paying tens of thousands of dollars, or it's to let your kid run in a backyard, or it's to be able to park your car in a driveway and then drive it to a grocery store, or it's to not have to take an elevator downstairs to let the dog out.

Oh, and if you want to do stuff in the city, drive 5 minutes to the train station and take the train in, or drive in and park for $20, or if you've got enough cash to afford a nice condo in downtown buy it as a second home and spend the weekend there when you want.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Good point. The most successful CSFMB members hail from Conant.

#fasttrack

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don