and how did that happen?

He used rules that significantly favored big revenue teams in drafting players well below their slot as lower revenue teams simply could not meet their pre ordained contractual demands. He effectively had a top 10 pick every year as the lower revenue teams balked at universally recognized superior players.

As you know, that market inefficiency is no longer available for him to manipulate and it definitely altered his plan from the day he took the job. The closing of the loophole is a reason he went balls out on Soler as he was just about the last player signed under the old system

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

I'm confused. With my advanced age, this happens pretty regularly.

BRick thinks Theo is helping sell this rebuilding plan. He's right.

RPB thinks the Cubs need a drastic overhaul of the farm system. He's also right. The farm system has been atrocious since Dallas Green left 25 years ago. With the change in ownership, new front office, and failed Jim Hendry era, now seems to be a great time for the rebuild.

So what's the big deal, here?

Was Jim Hendry a failed era? It looks like one of the more successful of the last 50 years on paper.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Success in 2015 pretty much requires that all prospects rise rapidly and are immediately good to great upon arrival at MLB. That is a highly unlikely scenario.

The more likely scenario is that Epstien feels the pressure to move them along and has to bring them up before they are MLB ready.

Soler pretty much has to be on the Cubs next year to quell the discontent.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

That does not change history. He still drafted the right guys and they still won a WS.

He will have to find the next loophole

He's the scapegoat. The truth is, he's been their best player over the course of his contract and if Anthony Rizzo has anywhere close to the career Soriano has it will be an unqualified success.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Dont try that JORR parlor trick on me.

Of course Rizzo would be successful if he ends up being a multi time all star. Much of Soriano's career took place elsewhere.

He's the scapegoat for a reason. I dont blame him totally but Rick asked about what could have been done that would have benefited THIS season.

And he hasnt been the best player over the course of the contract. Lee and Ramirez were both better when they were here.

I think the question is whether it's an actual rebuilding plan with Theo making strictly baseball decisions based on value rather than dollar amount, or whether he's passing up deals he considers great because the Ricketts family refuses to bear the freight at this time.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Well, we will all find out the truth in this next off season. I expect Free Agent additions.

Ramirez may have been better. Overall I don't think Lee was. Regardless, Soriano has been a good Cub and likely better than anyone they have right now. He just wasn't the 40/40 Cub fans thought he should be for that money. That was unrealistic from the jump.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

It was unrealistic for him to keep up that pace, but he literally was just coming off a 40/40 campaign

Also, he was a complete waste of space in post season

Right, but the running part of the 40/40 always ends abruptly. Guys who can do the one 40 generally aren't motivated to keep doing the other for very long.



So was Andre Dawson but he'll probably get a statue soon.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

One guy literally said he'd play for any amount of money.

The other signed an 8 year deal for 20 million per.

And Dawson drove in 3 runs in those 5 games. 3 more than Fonzi


If you value our online friendship, you will never speak ill of the Hawk again!!!

I'm a Soriano guy. I can't blame a man for taking what he can get. He's always played hard and he's been a damn good hitter. He still is.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

That wasn't my question. If you are unhappy with this current season, I wanted to know what could have been done to fix that. You answered with an impossible solution. It was done to point out that the Cubs have a free pass this year. They could lose 100 games and people won't be mad because Theo has a "plan". It's not even necessarily wrong but given that the Ricketts are pulling in more money than the last 10 World Series champions while doing it shows that Theo being hired gave them a ton of money. You even have Cub fans like Kirkwood thinking that this is a better plan than the one that resulted in almost making the World Series.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Wrong again.

What could be done to fix it? Not much. I dont think they could have signed enough free agents to win a world series this year.

Again, and going on 3 years, you act as if the Cubs are the first team to ever rebuild.




That's not what he said. That's how you twisted it to prove your flawed position.

A farm system and development aids in long term sustained success.

You are comparing that to an 88 win team that got hot in September.

Of course its better to plan for long term success than to just hope to catch lightening in a bottle.


What should Cub fans do? Should I physically attack Tom Ricketts or Theo? Should I burn a cross at Clark and Addison?

Just because I dont bemoan every loss, doesnt mean Im happy. Im just not shocked, because Ive heard of a rebuild before.

Yeah, that is how 04 happened, but 07 was a core of guys Theo drafted.[/quote]

and how did that happen?

He used rules that significantly favored big revenue teams in drafting players well below their slot as lower revenue teams simply could not meet their pre ordained contractual demands. He effectively had a top 10 pick every year as the lower revenue teams balked at universally recognized superior players.

As you know, that market inefficiency is no longer available for him to manipulate and it definitely altered his plan from the day he took the job. The closing of the loophole is a reason he went balls out on Soler as he was just about the last player signed under the old system[/quote]
That does not change history. He still drafted the right guys and they still won a WS.

He will have to find the next loophole[/quote]

He didn't find a loophole. He threw money at players everyone else considered top prospect but undraftable by everyone but the richest team. He happened to have one of the richest teams.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

That would be a loophole.

They closed the loophole with the new rules.

88 wins is a lot. The Cubs have won more than that about 5 or 6 times since WWII. What do you consider a good year for a team? We know there is no glory in winning 78 games because Theo says so. Is there glory in winning 87? 90?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

but he didn't find it. It wasn't like he devised some brilliant plan unavailable to anyone else.

It is as much a loophole as the Yankees being able to take on a Vernon Wells contract when Curtis Granderson goes down.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

My point was that a team jumping up and winning 88 games after they were nearly sellers at the deadline, is not something to count on.

Sustained success > Hoping to catch lightening.

For starters the next loophole they are trying to exploit is loading up on front office staff, creating latin america training facilities, and building up the talent development programs. Also seen various stories about them poaching top scouts from other teams.

Surely this will be mocked, but the whole Cubbie way book isn't just BS marketing. But surely this makes me an apologist. But conceptually the idea of a uniformed message through out the organization makes a lot of sense. It shocked me when I first heard there wasn't cohesive plans going through the different levels on the minor leagues.

Another reason the cubs will be worse than they need to be is this front office recognizes the value of cost controlled years and will make prospect truly excel before moving them up. Letting players physically mature and dominant levels rather than challenge them and let them fail. These are both things the Rays did and let them compete.

I believe the old regime let castro come up 15 or 20 days early costing them a year of team control. That won't happen any more.

Well, apparently he did, because none of the other big market teams took advantage.

Are you now saying that the only way you'd be happy about a season is if the Cubs won the World Series?
Have some expectations before 2015. Be ready to question whether things are going correctly if this is another terrible year. The other choice is just to accept this as a lost year, give them a free pass, and trust in Theo, which is what I think is happening and has been my point all along. Almost every other GM would not be given the same pass at least in a major market with a team that is currently the most profitable team in the league.

You just keep on dancing around my ultimate point. You can pretend that you are unhappy with the results this year but in reality you've made it clear it really doesn't matter. There will also be low expectations for next year. That's why you won't even put a number of games you'd be happy for them to win. It's either some incredibly low number, or it's a high number you know they won't reach.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

That's not true.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

I bolded the parts that are passing spin and creeping into lying territory.

You are getting out of control

You really should stop telling people how they feel.

Im not the one dancing. You have tried to manipulate every move made since Theo's hiring into "Cub fans are dumb" and dont toss the Cutler thing out like that has no merit.

If there is one thing you've proven in your time here, its that you will bend and break reality to prove you were right and you make grand pronouncements and then build your flawed case around it.


I have questioned the plan IN THIS THREAD. But you dont see that because it doesnt serve your purpose.


Here is what you have basically done

Rick: Cub fans dont mind losing

Bryan: No, thats not true. I hate the losing.

Rick: No you dont.


So, Are you insane or just trying to fit your narrative?

I have questioned Theo. I have said I dont like the losing. I gave you a win total that would make me happy. I said I dont trust the owner.

You're not even using sound logic. According to your logic a person in a wheelchair is fine with not being able to walk because they dont bitch about it everyday.

That's not true.[/quote]
Who else took advantage of it and how terrible must that GM be?

Yes, Theo's plan was mimicked after he started doing it.

The Twins have had a comprehensive development system for as long as I can remember. I remember the Dodger way being a thing when I was a kid. The Orioles used to do it as well. There is nothing novel about the plan.

That latin loophole is already closed. Latin spending has been capped. MLB is also working with the union to try to have latin players included in the draft.

The minor league plan is a solid one. I don't debate that. It isn't a unique one and Theo didn't wonderboy anything in its creation. What Theo did was provide coverage for the team in implementing the plan.

The part that I do debate is the denuding of the MLB team while implementing the minor league plan. There is nothing inconsistent about spending for a couple of years on short term contracts while reinvesting in the minors, but the Cubs treat it as if there is.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

On paper. Key words there. If the goal was to look good in the record books, then I would agree it was a success. But they spent like madmen trying to win their first WS since 1908. Obviously they didn't. On top of that, the veterans became bad and the farm system sucked when Hendry was fired. If this isn't a failure, then they underachieved as they never met their ultimate goal.



Fair enough. They needed to rebuild though. Does it matter if it's by choice or out of necessity?

Instead of continue this, I'll just let the season play out and see how Cub fans react. I predict that if it's a bad season that most Cub fans won't be unhappy. Maybe this year it will change and more people will start to question whether Theo's plan is actually working.

Oh, but your win total thing was a joke. 95 games? I'm sorry I didn't take that as a serious answer. I guess if they only win 90 games you'll be mad.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!