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 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:50 pm 
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I'm searching the Internet to see if Jackie Robinson regularly waited too long to change his tires.

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Elmhurst Steve
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:19 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Elmhurst Steve wrote:
Best 5 seasons for each player:

Jackie Robinson
1949 .342 16 HR 124 RBI 37 SB By far his best season.
1950 .328 14HR 81 RBI 12 SB
1951 .338 19 HR 88 RBI 25 SB
1952 .308 19 HR 75 RBI 24 SB
1953 .329 12 HR 95 RBI 17 SB

Frank Robinson (The better one)

1959 .311 36 HR 125 RBI 18 SB
1961 .323 37 HR 124 RBI 22 SB
1962 .342 39 HR 136 RBI 18 SB
1965 .296 33 HR 113 RBI 13 SB
1966 .316 49 HR 122 RBI 8 SB

Hank Aaron

1959 .355 39 HR 123 RBI 8 SB
1961 .327 34 HR 120 RBI 21 SB
1962 .323 45 HR 128 RBI 15 SB
1963 .319 44 HR 130 RBI 31 SB
1966 .279 47 HR 127 RBI 21 SB

Ernie Banks
1958 .313 47 HR 129 RBI 4 SB
1959 .304 45 HR 143 RBI 2 SB
1960 .271 41 HR 117 RBI 1 SB
1962 .269 37 HR 104 RBI 5 SB
1969 .309 23 HR 106 RBI 1 SB

Willie Mays- Too many seasons with over a .320 average, 30-50 HR's and 100-130 RBI to list.

My original statement was just that there were better players in the Negro League at the time Jackie Robinson was selected to play for the Dodgers. RPB was the one that challenged that statement, so I supported it with names and statistics that bolstered my statement. According to stats accumulated, Jackie Robinson's career stats compare to Edgar Martinez, Carlos Guillen, Jeff Cirillo and Joe Randa. Had he not been the first black player in the major leagues, chances are good he never would have been selected for the Hall of Fame.

So, now we are taking their 5 best years and comparing them?

You underrate Jackie Robinson because you dont understand a lot of the history of baseball and how things played differently in different eras (As evidenced by your comparing Robinson's steals to guys who played 4 decades later)



I posted their top 5 seasons to destroy your lame theory that Banks, Frank Robinson and Aarons numbers were only far greater thanks to longevity. As can easily be seen, comparing the top 5 seasons for each player leaves Jackie Robinson's numbers woefully lacking. Also, if you want to emphasise stolen bases look over Ty Cobbs stolen base season totals. Makes Robinson's look pretty paltry.

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notbob
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:32 pm 
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Elmhurst Steve wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Elmhurst Steve wrote:
Best 5 seasons for each player:

Jackie Robinson
1949 .342 16 HR 124 RBI 37 SB By far his best season.
1950 .328 14HR 81 RBI 12 SB
1951 .338 19 HR 88 RBI 25 SB
1952 .308 19 HR 75 RBI 24 SB
1953 .329 12 HR 95 RBI 17 SB

Frank Robinson (The better one)

1959 .311 36 HR 125 RBI 18 SB
1961 .323 37 HR 124 RBI 22 SB
1962 .342 39 HR 136 RBI 18 SB
1965 .296 33 HR 113 RBI 13 SB
1966 .316 49 HR 122 RBI 8 SB

Hank Aaron

1959 .355 39 HR 123 RBI 8 SB
1961 .327 34 HR 120 RBI 21 SB
1962 .323 45 HR 128 RBI 15 SB
1963 .319 44 HR 130 RBI 31 SB
1966 .279 47 HR 127 RBI 21 SB

Ernie Banks
1958 .313 47 HR 129 RBI 4 SB
1959 .304 45 HR 143 RBI 2 SB
1960 .271 41 HR 117 RBI 1 SB
1962 .269 37 HR 104 RBI 5 SB
1969 .309 23 HR 106 RBI 1 SB

Willie Mays- Too many seasons with over a .320 average, 30-50 HR's and 100-130 RBI to list.

My original statement was just that there were better players in the Negro League at the time Jackie Robinson was selected to play for the Dodgers. RPB was the one that challenged that statement, so I supported it with names and statistics that bolstered my statement. According to stats accumulated, Jackie Robinson's career stats compare to Edgar Martinez, Carlos Guillen, Jeff Cirillo and Joe Randa. Had he not been the first black player in the major leagues, chances are good he never would have been selected for the Hall of Fame.

So, now we are taking their 5 best years and comparing them?

You underrate Jackie Robinson because you dont understand a lot of the history of baseball and how things played differently in different eras (As evidenced by your comparing Robinson's steals to guys who played 4 decades later)



I posted their top 5 seasons to destroy your lame theory that Banks, Frank Robinson and Aarons numbers were only far greater thanks to longevity. As can easily be seen, comparing the top 5 seasons for each player leaves Jackie Robinson's numbers woefully lacking. Also, if you want to emphasise stolen bases look over Ty Cobbs stolen base season totals. Makes Robinson's look pretty paltry.



i think what's trying to be said the robinison lost anywhere from 6 to 9 years on playing time. surely he wasn't the best player in the negro leagues at the time. but look what he did in a short time. in 1998 he was rated one of the top 100 players of all time by the sporting news. hank was 5, frank 22, ernie 38, jackie 44. i'm sure there are more up to date list. to lazy to find it.
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jimmypasta
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:34 pm 
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ES,
While all black ballplayers had pressure on them in the 50's -60's era,you have to admit that Jackie's stats are very impressive considering the pressure put on him being the first of his race. (Actually,I think I remember a black played in the 1890's for somebody.)

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notbob
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:40 pm 
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jimmypasta wrote:
ES,
While all black ballplayers had pressure on them in the 50's -60's era,you have to admit that Jackie's stats are very impressive considering the pressure put on him being the first of his race. (Actually,I think I remember a black played in the 1890's for somebody.)



moses fleetwood walker
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Elmhurst Steve
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:44 pm 
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jimmypasta wrote:
ES,
While all black ballplayers had pressure on them in the 50's -60's era,you have to admit that Jackie's stats are very impressive considering the pressure put on him being the first of his race. (Actually,I think I remember a black played in the 1890's for somebody.)


Sure he had pressure, just as Henry Aaron had probably even greater pressure when he closed in on Babe Ruth's all-time Home Run record. Larry Doby was called up just one week after Robinson was and he had probably equal pressure. He had a couple seasons with over 30 homers and 5 seasons with over 100 RBI (compared to Robinsons 1). Doby didn't steal many bases and had a slightly lower batting average, but had better power numbers. Again, Robinson was a very good player, but his career is highly overrated.

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rogers park bryan
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:51 am 
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Elmhurst Steve wrote:


I posted their top 5 seasons to destroy your lame theory that Banks, Frank Robinson and Aarons numbers were only far greater thanks to longevity..

I said that because you were throwing out career stats for guys who played 20 years vs a guy who played 10.

Robinson was great. If you disagree, that's fine. But he was. He's a hall of fame player.
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Elmhurst Steve
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:10 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Elmhurst Steve wrote:


I posted their top 5 seasons to destroy your lame theory that Banks, Frank Robinson and Aarons numbers were only far greater thanks to longevity..

I said that because you were throwing out career stats for guys who played 20 years vs a guy who played 10.

Robinson was great. If you disagree, that's fine. But he was. He's a hall of fame player.


Right.... so I showed how stacking up his best 5 seasons also showed just how inferior a player he was next to Frank Robinson, Aaron, Mays, and Banks. I didn't say he wasn't a very good player. I just think a guy that never hit more than 19 homers in a season, had just 1 season with 100 RBI and had a high of just 37 stolen bases (otherwise never more than 25) is not quite the superstar player he's made out to have been. I know as the first Negro player, he carries a special place in the hearts of many individuals, but it doesn't change the fact that his numbers compare more to Edgar Martinez and Jeff Cirillo than to Aaron or Banks. Yeah, he's a hall of famer. But I would take over 100 other hall of famers on an all-time team before taking Jackie Robinson.

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rogers park bryan
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:12 am 
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No he was not more like Jeff Cirillo or Edgar Martinez. Dont be silly and rely on the baseball reference comparisons. (Not sure where you got Joe Randa)

The Alomar comparison is best.
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Hatchetman
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:15 am 
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He's a top 10 second baseman. Don't compare him to right fielders, that's silly. Compare him to Joe Morgan, Alomar, Sandberg, Gehringer, etc.

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rogers park bryan
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:15 am 
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For those who dont dismiss WAR, this was his number and rank

1948 NL 5.4 (7th)
1949 NL 9.6 (1st)
1950 NL 7.5 (2nd)
1951 NL 9.7 (1st)
1952 NL 8.5 (1st)
1953 NL 7.0 (5th)
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Hatchetman
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:16 am 
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Defensive statistics today are shaky enough, let alone trying to go back to the 1950s.

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rogers park bryan
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:20 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Defensive statistics today are shaky enough, let alone trying to go back to the 1950s.

Are you talking about my WAR post?

Here, I took out the defense for you

Offensive WAR† s c a p y
1948 NL 4.9 (7th)
1949 NL 8.6 (3rd)
1950 NL 6.6 (3rd)
1951 NL 8.1 (3rd)
1952 NL 7.9 (1st)
1953 NL 5.9 (6th)
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Hatchetman
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:27 am 
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The stats don't lie. He was what he was.

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Elmhurst Steve
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:36 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
No he was not more like Jeff Cirillo or Edgar Martinez. Dont be silly and rely on the baseball reference comparisons. (Not sure where you got Joe Randa)

The Alomar comparison is best.


It's a BETTER comparison. But Alomar really was a better player. Alomar had 3 seasons with 20 or more homers, while Jackie Robinson had none. Alomar had 2 seasons with 100 RBI or more while Robinson had just 1. Alomar had 8 seasons with 30 or more stolen bases (including seasons with 53 and 55 ), while Robinson had just one and a high of just 37. In this comparison, Robinson also falls short. But it is a better comparison.

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rogers park bryan
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:58 am 
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Yes, Alomar is better than every second baseman other than Rogers Hornsby

I think you rely a little too much on exact numbers over the course of different eras.

You realize that 37 stolen bases was 12 more than the second place guy, right? And that it took another 11 years before anyone stole that many?
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Elmhurst Steve
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:09 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
He's a top 10 second baseman. Don't compare him to right fielders, that's silly. Compare him to Joe Morgan, Alomar, Sandberg, Gehringer, etc.



Doesn't quite measure up to Sandberg . Sandberg had 2 seasons with 100 RBI or more, while Robinson had just 1. Sandberg hit 20 or more (all 26 or more actually with a high of 40) homers in 5 seasons, while Robinson had none. Sandberg had 30 or more stolen bases 5 seasons with a high of 54, while Robinson had just one with a high of just 37. Sandberg also earned 9 gold glove awards, so while Robinson was considered a very good fielder, so was Sandberg.

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rogers park bryan
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:15 am 
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Steve, you love the RBI stat.

Some hate it. You dont. You love it.
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Elmhurst Steve
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:16 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Yes, Alomar is better than every second baseman other than Rogers Hornsby

I think you rely a little too much on exact numbers over the course of different eras.

You realize that 37 stolen bases was 12 more than the second place guy, right? And that it took another 11 years before anyone stole that many?



Again, if you go back to Ty Cobb's totals that I listed earlier in this thread, you will find the work of a truely exceptional base runner. The fact that nobody approached those kinds of totals again until Lou Brock played with the Cardinals just shows how uncommon those kind of guys are. Ricky Henderson, Tim Raines and a few others were outstanding in more modern times. But just because Robinson led the league in a year that had poor base-stealing stats, doesn't make the accomplishment impressive. Joe Morgan had 2 seasns with 67 steals and hit 20 or more homers in 4 different seasons. He was better too.

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rogers park bryan
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:17 am 
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Elmhurst Steve wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
He's a top 10 second baseman. Don't compare him to right fielders, that's silly. Compare him to Joe Morgan, Alomar, Sandberg, Gehringer, etc.



Doesn't quite measure up to Sandberg . Sandberg had 2 seasons with 100 RBI or more, while Robinson had just 1. Sandberg hit 20 or more (all 26 or more actually with a high of 40) homers in 5 seasons, while Robinson had none. Sandberg had 30 or more stolen bases 5 seasons with a high of 54, while Robinson had just one with a high of just 37. Sandberg also earned 9 gold glove awards, so while Robinson was considered a very good fielder, so was Sandberg.

You do realize that 1949 37 SB is not equal to 1984 37 sb right?
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rogers park bryan
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:18 am 
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Steve, you should look into the WAR stat and why its used.

Its not wise to try and compare guys across different generations by exact numbers
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rogers park bryan
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:25 am 
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RBI is a pretty useless stat that relies way too much on teammates

1949 numbers can not be compared to 1980's-90's numbers. If they were, then Richard Hidalgo must be better than Ted Williams

Joe Morgan hit .271 for his career and his OPS of .819 is a lot less than Robinson's .883


If you want to make these arguments based on stats, then use OPS. Dont use RBI's (useless) or number of seasons above ____ (since the player in question was limited to 10 years)
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Elmhurst Steve
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:27 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Steve, you love the RBI stat.

Some hate it. You dont. You love it.



Yes I do. Amongst hitters, I consider it to be a vital statistic. Producing runs is what it's all about as a hitter. A lot of guys (Juan Pierre comes to mind) can get hits with 2 outs and nobody on, or to lead off an inning. But what a hitter does with runners in scoring position means a lot more. It's not just how many hits you get, but when you get them. While Home Run hitters are great to have, there have been some (Dave Kingman comes to mind) that always seem to homer when there is nobody on base. Then there are guys like Robin Ventura and Carlton Fisk, who were amazing with the bases loaded. RBI totals can be a bit deceiving, in that a guy batting 3-5 is likely to get a lot more RBI opportunities that a guy batting leadoff or 8th (especially in the N.L. with the pitcher following). A guy like Ricky henderson could have had some impressive RBI totald had he been batting 3-5 in his career. But with his base stealing ability, he was the ideal leadoff man. But he had some power and a good batting average. Probably in my personal top 10 players of my lifetime.

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rogers park bryan
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:29 am 
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Ok, Steve.

I think Jackie Robinson was great and a legitmate hall of famer regardless of his social impact.
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Krazy Ivan
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:31 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Ok, Steve.

I think Jackie Robinson was great and a legitmate hall of famer regardless of his social impact.


And the social aspect can't be downplayed, either. Imagine all the Steves he had to deal with on a daily basis and still play at that level...

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rogers park bryan
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:37 am 
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Krazy Ivan wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Ok, Steve.

I think Jackie Robinson was great and a legitmate hall of famer regardless of his social impact.


And the social aspect can't be downplayed, either. Imagine all the Steves he had to deal with on a daily basis and still play at that level...

Oh for sure.

Most important athlete of the century. Im just saying, I think his play was good enough alone.
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Krazy Ivan
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:42 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Im just saying, I think his play was good enough alone.


No doubt.

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The Original Kid Cairo
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:43 am 
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Evry time we talk about baseball, a black man gotta pull Jackie Robinson out his ass.

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Hatchetman
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:43 am 
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Bill James had him #4 2B of all time behind Joe Morgan, Hornsby, and Collins. Bill James is probably the smartest baseball guy who ever lived, so I'll defer to him.

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Elmhurst Steve
 Post subject: Re: 42
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:47 am 
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Krazy Ivan wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Ok, Steve.

I think Jackie Robinson was great and a legitmate hall of famer regardless of his social impact.


And the social aspect can't be downplayed, either. Imagine all the Steves he had to deal with on a daily basis and still play at that level...


I know one of the guys that was cast as a K.C. Monarchs ballplayer (appeared early in the movie) we worked together on an ABC pilot recently and were talking about the movie. I would have LOVED to have been cast as the Phillies Manager (Chapman) that was taunting Robinson nearly to his breaking point. Yeah, I'm sure especially early in his career it was a challenge to stay focused. Then again, maybe it motivated him to perform better. 4th best 2nd baseman of all time seems a bit high, but it's a hell of a lot more realistic than RPB's judgement.

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