This is kinda bullshit, though. I think Ontario batted this around about five years ago, some idea of "binding Sharia arbitration" for those who wished to submit, as it were, to it. My question: why bother? We shouldn't have special Christian arbitration for two Christians to sort their differences out as long as it doesn't contradict actual law.

_________________

I'm not sure what is intended by the question. Historically, the dominant context in which the world "kafir" is used is legal. Jurists in Muslim lands termed non-Muslims as "kafir" to signify the latter's non-Muslimness, and therefore the latter's ineligibility, for example, to marry a Muslim woman, or whether or not an unknown deceased person would be buried according to Muslim or another religion's rites. A Muslim is buried one way, while a "kafir" is buried according to his or her respective religious code. There is no slur behind the use, it's strictly legal.

Modern groups use "kafir" as a slur, sort of analogous to racist terms used for Blacks and Jews. That what you may be getting at in your post, I don't know for sure. In any case, "kafir" as slur is modern. But I'd also need to know what you meant by being "taught" that non-Muslims are infidels. In legitimate, widely recognized institutions of learning, non-Muslims are simply other humans. The ethics and morals one learns apply to everyone, irrespective of religion (or non-religion).

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Really so according to your religion non-muslims who worship of the book are to be treated as second class citizens and have to pay and extra tax in order to live in Muslim society?

_________________
When I am stuck and need to figure something out I always remember the Immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I just drank what?"

I'm not Muslim so I'm not sure if "kafir" traditionally encompasses Jews and Christians or if they are viewed as fellow believers in "the one G_d". But I think we can agree that the belief that all non-Muslims are kafir or are infidels is gaining support across the Muslim world.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Vegan, allow me to introduce you to Chas. I believe you'll get along swimmingly...

<grabs popcorn>

_________________

_________________

I'm not an American law expert, but I do think such cases happen all the time in private contracts. In divorce proceedings, for example, couples with particular religious backgrounds may reach an agreement in court to split their assets or custodial rights according to religious law. This is mostly for personal/family law, however, and obviously wouldn't extend to crimes and other sorts of criminal proceedings.

My post was in regards to Muslim countries. The problem you mention in Ontario also exists in places like France, England, and a whole host of other European countries. It's obviously up to those governments to decide on plural legal systems, and dissenting groups, Muslim and others, have no other choice but to submit to the authority of the state, and that's how it should be.

I will say, however, that the kind of centralized ruling structures we have in modern states--a uniform body of law applicable to everyone irrespective of communal/religious affiliation--is entirely modern. Post-colonial states in the Muslim world, and elsewhere, have yet to figure out the whole centralized state idea, which is why you see the authority of states constantly challenged (it also doesn't help that many states are overtly, and unapologetically, corrupt). I say this to point out that your question---why bother, as you put it---reflects our upbringing in a land and culture that's had this sort of centralized structure in place for a long time. That hasn't been the case for much of the rest of the world, which is partly why we see these kinds of issues.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Love me some Alyssa Milano.

_________________

I'm not Muslim so I'm not sure if "kafir" traditionally encompasses Jews and Christians or if they are viewed as fellow believers in "the one G_d". But I think we can agree that the belief that all non-Muslims are kafir or are infidels is gaining support across the Muslim world.[/quote]

Again, based on what? I'm not saying that, nor are my Muslims friends, families, and so on...? Have you been to the Muslim world, or studied any Gallup polls? I'm just curious as to why you so strongly assert that common Muslims find that idea of hating others to be so appealing.

Theologically, Muslims do hold that they attempt to worship the same G_d of the Christians and Jews, although there are well-known philosophical disagreements on all sides as to the nature of that G_d, as well as the manner in which G_d's message is distributed to ordinary people.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Why aren't we typing God?

_________________

That's the way it was typed in a response to me, so I didn't want to offend anyone by diverging from that style of spelling.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Ok, thought it was a new board meme or something...

_________________

I was gonna blame Obama.

_________________

Doesn't your above post regarding "France, England and a whole host of other European countries" support my contention to at least some degree?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

In what sense? That desiring parallel legislation reflects hatred for others? I'm not trying to be sarcastic with my questions, I'm just sincerely asking for a clarification.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

We're talking about beliefs here. The desire for Sharia law doesn't suggest a desire for a Western parallel. Someone who wants to live under Sharia law obviously has a certain belief. I'm suggesting such a belief is incompatible with Western-style "democracy". You seem to be promoting the viewpoint that such beliefs are a fringe element of Islam in the way that the KKK is a fringe element of Christianity. I just don't believe that to be the case.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Still no answer to my question.
Also,the desire for establishment of Sharia law in countries where Islam is in the minority is wrong because they are seeking separate but unequal. In most countries this is illegal

_________________
When I am stuck and need to figure something out I always remember the Immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I just drank what?"

Majority rules huh?

_________________

Yes,it is called voting

_________________
When I am stuck and need to figure something out I always remember the Immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I just drank what?"

Interesting.

How popular was the civil rights movement amongst the majority at the time?

Was it wrong because "they were not the majority"?

_________________

The majority whee in favor. Certain parts where not. If it was not popular across the country it never would have passed. Civil rights was not a one term program but a long term. The majority of the population is in the more liberal North of this country,it was inevitable.
So you are not in favor of voting as a way of determining laws and government? What would be your preferred method then?

_________________
When I am stuck and need to figure something out I always remember the Immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I just drank what?"

No the majority of the country wasn't in favor of it. A majority of Senators and Congressmen, led by many Republicans, as well as Presidents Kennedy and Johnson wanted it.

Elections are great. I'm not the one who called for the Federal government to come in and take over Illinois.

_________________

I don't think I was clear in saying what I meant by a "parallel." What I meant was movements in non-Muslim countries to have private religious laws recognized in particular cases that are ultimately subject to state discretion. My apologies for the confusion.

Now I sensed two things from your initial response to my post, and then from subsequent responses:

1) Most Muslims want the world ruled by shariah law
2) All/most Muslims hate non-Muslims, as part of their religious duty

Insofar as these two points are an accurate summary of your thoughts, I am challenging point one while categorically denying point two.

As far is the first point is concerned, there is a difference between Muslims who want to subject the entire world to shariah, and Muslims who seek to have shariah recognized, entirely or partially, in Muslim and non-Muslim countries. Let's be clear about the first group: no educated, literate, clear-minded person, Muslim or not, wants to see this happen. I want to bring this up here to implore you to reconsider the idea that most or all Muslims (over a billion) want the world to be subjected to Islamic law; nothing could be further from the truth.

Now, as far as Muslims desiring to subject themselves to Shariah rulings in private law cases in Western democracies, I'm not entirely sure where you stand on that. As far as I see it, these cases may be similar to traditionally marginalized and/or minority communities appealing to the state to make accommodations to the particular desires of a citizen-collective. Some states have made concessions, others haven't, but that's the legal process. Those who desire such accommodations are free to do so through the legal process, just as those who oppose it are free to contest it through the same legal process. In both cases, state authority is never questioned or subverted. In fact, the secular authority is reinforced through the very act of appealing to it for whatever accommodations.

As far as point two is concerned, insofar as I understand you correctly, I don't think you've provided enough evidence to support the alleged contention that all Muslims are taught to hate non-Muslims on religious grounds. I've provided anecdotal evidence from my own experience and academic knowledge of Muslim communities to refute what I think you may be saying. Those who slur others with epithets like infidel and support their ideology with scripture are not taken seriously among mainstream Muslims. In my own community, mosques have refused admittance to isolated individuals who demonize non-Muslims, as has been the practice in other communities throughout the country. My suggestion to you would be to look at academic, scholarly literature from the Muslim world. You'll see a completely different picture from the learned classes. Even in a place like Saudi Arabia, you'll see scholars emphasizing discourses of co-existence, a practice which doesn't garner much favor from extremist groups.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

You're speaking of a pre-modern sociopolitical arrangement in the Ottoman Empire that segregated communities according to religious affiliation, and imposed taxes on non-Muslims to replace the Islamic charity tax imposed on Muslim subjects. Yes, this did happen, and the practice was --at the time--normal practice across all major empires. That it is out of place today is obvious, which is why no mainstream figures, scholars, or politicians would dare recommend its revival.

Don't bother copying and pasting copious quotes from people like Osama bin Laden about infidels, terror, etc. No serious figure cares about that. The only people who give ideas like that any seriousness are anti-terror agencies in Muslim and Western world, as they should.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."



Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Want me to continue?
That is not from some modern day extremist but from your "prophet"

_________________
When I am stuck and need to figure something out I always remember the Immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I just drank what?"

Now that we have a Muslim member, all this board needs is a Sikh and a Baha'i and we'll have it all covered.

_________________

Since this thread is about Boston, I did wanted to express my own horror at the events.

People who kill civilians are deranged and sick, no matter religious or ideological affiliation. The problem starts and end there - in a person's personal choice to kill innocents, no matter what language they may use to explain their choice. If a Christian shoots down an abortionist doctor, or if a Zionist shoots down a Palestinian child, or if a Muslim bombs a marathon, all in the supposed name of a religious cause, I am not going to target the religion - I am going to focus on the warped and sick minds that led people to conclude that taking the lives of innocent people presented no problem.

Fuck every person who thinks like that - no matter race, creed, or religion.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Chas, I'm reading the bible now. It's full of stuff like that too.

_________________

Sure, you can continue all you want - I just won't be reading. You not responding substantively to my post reinforces what I've read about you from others on this board.

I can offer much on the history of scripture and how all sorts of scriptures are historically understood, but I have a feeling you'll be scouring the net for your next copy and paste adventure rather than actually engaging me in a conversation.

Suffice to say it seems like you have more in common with miscreants than I ever will, seeing how you seem to approach scripture literally--and not historically/textually--much like those fringe groups do.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

True Hank. Very much so but here is the main point. We as followers of that book have in the vast majority moved past that and matured. The vast majority of Muslims have not moved their religion beyond the middle ages.

And Vegan so you try and say that what I am talking about is from the Ottoman Empire or misquotes from the so called "radicals" from the religion you follow. When I respond with Direct quotes you put the blame back on me. Sorry but that religion to me is as repugnant as satanists.

_________________
When I am stuck and need to figure something out I always remember the Immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I just drank what?"