Quickest surrender in board history.

I cut and pasted so not to give you wiggle room of claiming misinterpretation.

_________________
When I am stuck and need to figure something out I always remember the Immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I just drank what?"

True, and by not using his own words, Chas saved you from not being able to interpret it at all.

_________________

True that Leash.
Glad to have you back

_________________
When I am stuck and need to figure something out I always remember the Immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I just drank what?"

So I did go back on my word about not reading.

Look, I am not here to apologize for or sanitize scripture in any way. You do not need me to remind you that you're entitled to hate or dislike whatever. If it were me, I'd hope approach strange and bizarre things with care and caution if I cared enough, but that's just me.

I responded here to clarify more worldly stuff--and that's the attitudes and dispositions of common, everyday Muslims toward events like the Boston bombings. It is abhorred - plain and simple.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

So you say events like Boston,what of those that danced in the street on 9/11/01 and burnt this countries flags?

_________________
When I am stuck and need to figure something out I always remember the Immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I just drank what?"

Vegan,

Let me start by saying I think you lay out some well reasoned arguments. I have no problem with any one religion in particular. I have equal use for all of them - none. However, I don't begrudge anyone for their own particular set of beliefs.

My question for you is in regards to the bolded wording above. Whether we are talking about Islam, Christianity, Judaism, or the Church of Narcotics I formed in college, who determines whether we are to take the scripture literally or historically? Any document must be interpreted, but how far can we deviate from some of these quotes before it's not even the same religion anymore? And who is the arbiter of what is now "Islam" and what is not? Where does it stop? If the tenets of the initial document are to be ignored or "modernized", why not just start an entirely new religion? To me, it's similar to saying that we should tell our appointed Supreme Court Justices to make rulings based on their own world view even if it starts to conflict with the Bill of Rights or any other part of the Constitution.

Again, I ask these questions sincerely. Perhaps you've given it thought and have some well-reasoned responses. The same questions apply to any religion, in my book.

_________________

Chas - Do you know there are American Muslim soldiers who were deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan following 9/11? A grave of a Muslim soldier in the US Army who died via IED is placed near my own grandmother's grave here in the US.

It is unfair and bigoted to assume that my background serves as proof of acceptance of terror. I wonder if you apply the same logic to Asian Americans after V-Tech, or to white Americans after Sandy Hook, Oak Creek, and Oklahoma, and so on.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Veganfan is bitch slapping Chas in this thread.

_________________

Making him one in a long line of those who have spanked chas.

_________________

Chas,
I understand where you are coming from and I too wish death upon those who danced on 9/11, but you cannot stereotype an entire religion.
Let me give an example: When I was 18, I was robbed at gunpoint near Midway Airport by three black guys; I was pistol-whipped in the face and still have a mark today. All they got from me was $1.50. Now, I had the choice of suspecting every black person I was around that they would attack me; I could have become a racist. Instead, I recognized evil comes in many shapes, colors, genders, and ages. I distrust EVERYONE equally; white people rob too. Islam is a religion of peace; the problem becomes when people become radicalized and take everything written in the Quran as the truth. Just like the Bible and other religious books, they contain falsehoods.

Taking your example, when a people who proclaims he is Christian blows up an abortion clinic in the name of his religion, should all Christians be considered to be violent abortionists? No, they shouldn't.

Not all Muslims believe in volence and in fact many of them have spoken out against jihad and the barbaric treatment of women.

Before you start attacking me Chas, I am a rock-ribbed conservative who would like nothing more than to gather every America-hating, radical-thinking, violence encouraging jihadist in a spot and drop a nuke on them.

_________________
Sherman remarked, "Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?" Grant looked up. "Yes," he replied, followed by a puff. "Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow, though."

Those are not valid comparisons because you are trying to equate random sick spree killers with a well worked out plan. We are the sum of our memories and thoughts. It is the nurture vs nature. You can not continually be taught hate and evil and expect it to not affect your worldview. Look at the kids raised under the Nazis. or The Japanese who where indoctrinated with Bushido and emperor worship. The very circumstances that Islam was formed has lead it to the way it is. You can not say that it is a very harsh cruel belief system. Some Christian cults are like that as well. The thing is there are a lot more of the hardliners in Islam than there is in Christianity.

Yeah and it was a Muslim who was a dr in the Army who went all six gun sound in Texas a few years back. Or the numerous instances of so called friends turning guns against American Advisers.

_________________
When I am stuck and need to figure something out I always remember the Immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I just drank what?"

True points.
Now let us say that every three months the same thing happens to you by the same group.
What do you do then? Avoid them? Get some of your Friends to try and stop them?
If they are so peace loving and forward thinking in the aspect of womens rights why do they not speack up and take their religion from the bad ones ,like we have done. If a right wing nut kills an abortion dr we do not hide him out or refuse to give information to the police.
Look at the morons from the Westbororo church and how they have been handled. Ever think you will see a comparable protest like that between two Islamic groups that did not turn into a huge mob action?

_________________
When I am stuck and need to figure something out I always remember the Immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I just drank what?"

1) Our society is too politically correct today; law enforcement is afraid of being accused as bigots if they investigate individuals with suspected jihadist ties. I agree with you that the terrorist acts committed against this country (Except Oklahoma City & Atlanta Olympics off the top of my head) were committed by RADICAL Muslims. I know plenty of Muslims here that love this country and do not demand their wives wear hijabs; they simply follow Ramadan and avoid alcohol and pork.

2) The women's rights issues happen primarily in Muslim countries; the silent majority remains quiet for fear of retaliation by the givernment.

3) If you are talking about mobs containing jihadists, of course they will become violent. I may not agree with some protests, but as long as they are non-violent, it does not bother me. Scum will use an controversial issue to committ violence under the guise of a protest.

_________________
Sherman remarked, "Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?" Grant looked up. "Yes," he replied, followed by a puff. "Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow, though."

Terrorist Attacks on US soil by group from 1980-2005.

www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications ... ablemobile




Chronological Summary of Terrorist Incidents in the United States 1980-2005

Date Location Incident Type Perpetrator Killed Injured
1/7/1980 San Juan, PR Pipe Bombing Anti-Communist Alliance
1/13/1980 New York, NY Bombing Omega 7 4
1/13/1980 Miami, FL Bombing Omega 7
1/19/1980 San Juan, PR Bombing Omega 7
3/12/1980 Hato Rey, PR Armed Assault Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros
3/15/1980 Chicago, IL Hostile Takeovers (2) Armed Forces of National Liberation
3/17/1980 New York, NY Bombing Croatian Freedom Fighters 3
3/25/1980 New York, NY Attempted Bombing Omega 7
4/19/1980 Chattanooga, TN Shooting Justice Knights of the Ku Klux Klan 4
4/30/1980 New York, NY Assault Revolutionary Communist Party
6/3/1980 Washington, DC Bombing Croatian Freedom Fighters
6/3/1980 New York, NY Bombing Croatian Freedom Fighters
7/14/1980 Dorato, PR Multiple Bombings (2) Organization of Volunteers for the
San Juan, PR Puerto Rico Revolution
7/14/1980 Ponce, PR Multiple Arsons (2) Organization of Volunteers for the
Mayaguez, PR Puerto Rico Revolution
7/22/1980 Hato Rey, PR Multiple Bombings (4) Revolutionary Commandos of the People,
Santurce, PR Ready and at War
Rio Piedras, PR
8/20/1980 Berkeley, CA Pipe Bombing Iranian Free Army 2
9/11/1980 New York, NY Shooting Omega 7 1
10/7/1980 New York, NY Attempted Bombing International Committee Against Nazism
10/12/1980 New York, NY Bombing Justice Commandos of the Armenian Genocide 4
10/12/1980 Hollywood, CA Bombing Justice Commandos of the Armenian Genocide 1
10/14/1980 Fort Collins, CO Shooting Libyan Revolutionary Committee 1
12/21/1980 New York, NY Pipe Bombing Armed Forces of Popular Resistance
12/30/1980 Hialeah, FL Attempted Bombing Omega 7
1/8/1981 Santurce, PR Multiple IncendiaryBombings (3) People’s Revolutionary Commandos
Ponce, PR
Rio Piedras, PR
1/12/1981 San Juan, PR Bombing Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros
1/23/1981 New York City, NY Bombing Croatian Freedom Fighters
1/26/1981 San Francisco, CA Bombing Jewish Defense League/American Revenge
Committee
2/2/1981 Los Angeles, CA Attempted Bombing 3-Oct
2/9/1981 Eugene, OR Assault Revolutionary Communist Youth Brigade
2/22/1981 Hollywood, CA Bombing Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation
of Armenia
3/15/1981 San Juan, PR Attempted Bombing Armed Forces of Popular Resistance
4/21/1981 Santurce, PR Robbery Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros
4/27/1981 Washington, DC Incendiary Bombing Iranian Patriotic Army
5/16-18/81 New York City, NY Multiple Bombings (5) Puerto Rican Armed Resistance 1
6/25/1981 Torrance, CA Incendiary Bombing Jewish Defenders
6/26/1981 Los Angeles, CA Bombing June 9 Organization
7/30/1981 New York City, NY Hostile Takeover Libyan Students
8/7/1981 Washington, DC Hostile Takeover People’s Mujahedin Organization of Iran 3
8/20/1981 Washington, DC Arson Black Brigade
8/20/1981 Los Angeles, CA Bombing June 9 Organization
8/27/1981 Carolina, PR Bombing Grupo Estrella
8/31/1981 New York City, NY Hostile Takeover Jewish Defense League
9/3-4/81 New York City, NY Multiple Bombings (2) Jewish Defense League
9/9/1981 Washington, DC Assault Concerned Sierra Leone Nationals
9/11/1981 Miami, FL Multiple Bombings (2) Omega 7
9/12/1981 New York City, NY Bombing Omega 7
9/22/1981 Schenectady, NY Bombing Communist Workers Party
9/24/1981 Miami, FL Attempted Bombing Omega 7
10/1/1981 Hollywood, CA Bombing Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia

10/25/1981 New York City, NY Incendiary Bombing Jewish Defense League
11/11/1981 Santurce, PR Bombing Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros
11/14/1981 Glen Cove, NY Shooting Unaffiliated Extremists
11/20/1981 Los Angeles, CA Bombing Justice Commandos of the Armenian Genocide
11/27/1981 Fort Buchanan, PR Shooting National Liberation Movement 1
11/27/1981 Santurce, PR Multiple Bombings (2) Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros
Condado, PR
12/24/1981 New York City, NY Attempted Pipe Jewish Defense League
Bombing
1/28/1982 Los Angeles, CA Shooting Justice Commandos of the Armenian 1
Genocide
2/19/1982 Miami, FL Multiple Bombings (2) Omega 7
2/19/1982 Washington, DC Bombing Jewish Defense League
2/21/1982 Rio Piedras, PR Pipe Bombing Antonia Martinez Student Commandos
2/28/1982 New York City, NY Multiple Bombings (4) Armed Forces of National Liberation
3/22/1982 Cambridge, MA Bombing Justice Commandos of the Armenian
Genocide
4/5/1982 Brooklyn, NY Arson Jewish Defense League 1 7
4/28/1982 New York City, NY Multiple Bombings (2) Jewish Defense League
4/29/1982 San Juan, PR Multiple Bombings (2) Provisional Coordinating Committee of the
Bayamon, PR Labor Self-Defense Group
4/29/1982 San Juan, PR Shooting Provisional Coordinating Committee of the
Labor Self-Defense Group
5/4/1982 Somerville, MA Shooting Justice Commandos of the Armenian 1
Genocide
5/16/1982 San Juan, PR Shooting Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros/ 1 3
Group for the Liberation of Vieques
5/17/1982 Union City, NJ Incendiary Bombing Omega 7
5/19/1982 Villa Sin Miedo, PR Shooting Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros 1 12
5/20/1982 San Juan, PR Attempted Bombing Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros
5/25/1982 San German, PR Kidnapping Grupo Estrella 1
5/30/1982 Van Nuys, CA Attempted Bombing Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of
Armenia
6/10/1982 Carolina, PR Multiple Bombings (3) Armed Forces of Popular Resistance
7/4/1982 New York City, NY Multiple Pipe Croatian Freedom Fighters
Astoria, NY Bombings (2)
7/5/1982 New York City, NY Multiple Pipe Jewish Defense League
Bombings (2)
8/20/1982 Old San Juan, PR Bombing Armed Forces of National Liberation
9/1/1982 Naranjito, PR Attempted Bombing Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros
9/2/1982 Miami, FL Bombing Omega 7
9/8/1982 Chicago, IL Bombing Omega 7
9/20/1982 New York City, NY Bombing Armed Forces of National Liberation
9/25/1982 Miami, FL Attempted Bombing Omega 7
10/15/1982 Washington, DC Hostile Takeover Islamic Extremists
10/22/1982 Philadelphia, PA Attempted Bombing Justice Commandos of the Armenian
Genocide
11/4/1982 New York City, NY Smoke Bombing Jewish Defense League
11/16/1982 Carolina, PR Multiple Robberies (2) Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros 1
12/8/1982 Washington, DC Attempted Bombing Norman David Mayer 1
12/16/1982 Elmont, NY Multiple Bombings (2) United Freedom Front
12/21/1982 New York City, NY Attempted Pipe Bombing Jewish Defense League

12/22/1982 McLean, VA Hostile Takeover People of Omar
12/31/1982 New York City, NY Multiple Bombings (5) Armed Forces of National Liberation 3
1/11-12/83 Miami, FL Multiple Bombings (3) Omega 7
1/28/1983 New York City, NY Bombing Revolutionary Fighting Group
2/13/1983 Medina, ND Shooting Sheriff’s Posse Comitatus 2 4
2/15/1983 Killeen, TX Hijacking Hossein Olya
2/19/1983 Washington, DC Pipe Bombing Jewish Defense League
3/20/1983 San Antonio, TX Bombing Republic of Revolutionary
4/26/1983 Washington, DC Bombing Armed Resistance Unit
4/27/1983 Miami, FL Attempted Bombings (4) Haitian Extremists
4/29/1983 Rio Piedras, PR Hostile Takeover Ejercito Popluar Boricua Macheteros
5/12/1983 Uniondale, NY Bombing United Freedom Front
5/13/1983 New York City, NY Bombing United Freedom Front
5/27/1983 Miami, FL Bombing Omega 7
7/8/1983 Miami, FL Kidnapping Ejercito Revolucionario Del Pueblo
7/15/1983 Rio Piedras, PR Robbery Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros 1
8/8/1983 Detroit, MI Attempted Incendiary Bombing Fuqra

8/8/1983 Detroit, MI Shooting Fuqra 1
8/9/1983 Detroit, MI Arson Fuqra 2
8/16/1983 Los Angeles, CA Hostile Takeover Carlos Martinez
8/18/1983 Washington, DC Bombing Armed Resistance Unit
8/21/1983 New York City, NY Bombing United Freedom Front
8/27/1983 Washington, DC Incendiary Bombing Unknown
10/12/1983 Miami, FL Pipe Bombing Omega 7
10/30/1983 Hato Rey, PR Rocket Attack Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros
11/7/1983 Washington, DC Bombing Armed Resistance Unit
12/13-14/83 East Meadow, NY Multiple Bombings (2) United Freedom Front
New York City, NY
1/29/1984 New York City, NY Bombing United Freedom Front
2/23/1984 New York City, NY Bombing Jewish Direct Action
3/19/1984 Harrison, NY Bombing United Freedom Front
4/5/1984 New York City, NY Bombing Red Guerrilla Resistance
4/20/1984 Washington, DC Bombing Red Guerrilla Resistance
5/9/1984 New York City, NY Attempted Assassination Bashir Baesho
8/22/1984 Melville, NY Bombing United Freedom Front
9/26/1984 New York City, NY Bombing Red Guerrilla Resistance
9/26/1984 Mount Pleasant, NY Bombing United Freedom Front
12/10/1984 Levittown, PR Multiple Bombings (5) Organization of Volunteers for the
Rio Piedras, PR Puerto Rican Revolution
Ponce, PR
Mayaguez, PR
Cayey, PR
1/25/1985 Old San Juan, PR Rocket Attack Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros/Organization of Volunteers for the Puerto Rican Revolution


2/23/1985 New York City, NY Bombing Red Guerrilla Resistance
5/15/1985 Northridge, CA Pipe Bombing Jewish Defense League
8/15/1985 Paterson, NJ Bombing Jewish Defense League 1 1
9/6/1985 Brentwood, NY Bombing Jewish Defense League 1
10/11/1985 Santa Ana, CA Bombing Jewish Defense League 1 7
11/6/1985 Bayamon, PR Shooting Organization of Volunteers for the Puerto Rican Revolution 1

1/6/1986 Cidra, PR Multiple Bombings (4) Ejercito Revolucionario Clandestino/ National Revolutionary Front of Puerto Rico
Toa Baja, PR
Guanica, PR
Santurce, PR
3/17/1986 Ponce, PR Attempted Bombing Commando Rojo
4/14/1986 Rio Piedras, PR Bombing Organization of Volunteers for the Puerto Rican Revolution

4/29/1986 San Juan, PR Shooting Organization of Volunteers for the Puerto Rican Revolution 1 1

5/14/1986 Phoenix, AZ Sabotage Earth First Organization
9/2/1986 New York City, NY Tear Gas Bombing Jewish Defense League 17
9/15/1986 Coeur d’Alene, ID Pipe Bombing Aryan Nations
9/29/1986 Coeur d’Alene, ID Multiple Bombings (4) Aryan Nations
10/20/1986 New York City, NY Incendiary Bombing Jewish Defense League
10/28/1986 Bayamon, PR Multiple Bombings (7) Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros 1
Fajardo, PR
Mayaguez, PR
Aguadilla, PR
Santurce, PR
Fort Buchanan, PR
11/4/1986 Puerta De Tierra, PR Attempted Bombing Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros
12/28/1986 Yauco, PR Multiple Bombings (2) Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros
Guayama, PR
4/16/1987 Davis, CA Arson Animal Liberation Front
5/25/1987 Caguas, PR Multiple Bombings (7) Guerrilla Forces of Liberation
Carolina, PR
Mayaguez, PR
Cidra, PR
Aibonita, PR
Ponce, PR
11/9/1987 Flagstaff, AZ Sabotage Evan Mecham Eco-Terrorist
International Conspiracy
1/12/1988 Rio Piedras, PR Multiple Incendiary Pedro Albizu Campos Revolutionary Forces
Bombings (2)
5/26/1988 Coral Gables, FL Bombing Organization Alliance of Cuban
Intransigence
7/22/1988 Caguas, PR Pipe Bombing Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros
9/19/1988 Los Angeles, CA Bombing Up the IRS, Inc.
9/25/1988 Grand Canyon, AZ Sabotage Evan Mecham Eco-Terrorist International
Conspiracy
10/25/1988 Flagstaff, AZ Sabotage Evan Mecham Eco-Terrorist International
Conspiracy
11/1/1988 Rio Piedras, PR Multiple Bombings (2) Pedro Albizu Campos Revolutionary Forces
4/3/1989 Tucson, AZ Arson Animal Liberation Front
6/19/1989 Bayamon, PR Multiple Bombings (2) Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros
7/3-4/89 Lubbock, TX Malicious Destruction of Property Animal Liberation Front
1/12/1990 Santurce, PR Multiple Pipe Bombings (2) Eugenio Maria de Hostos International Brigade of the Pedro Albizu Campos Revolutionary Forces
Carolina, PR

2/22/1990 Los Angeles, CA Bombing Up the IRS, Inc.
4/22/1990 Santa Cruz County, CA Malicious Destruction of Property Earth Night Action Group

5/27/1990 Mayaguez, PR Arson Unknown Puerto Rican Group
9/17/1990 Arecibo, PR Multiple Bombings (2) Pedro Albizu Group Revolutionary Forces
Vega Baja, PR
2/3/1991 Mayaguez, PR Arson Popular Liberation Army
2/18/1991 Sabana Grande, PR Arson Popular Liberation Army
3/17/1991 Carolina, PR Arson Unknown Puerto Rican Group
4/1/1991 Fresno, CA Bombing Popular Liberation Army
7/6/1991 Punta Borinquen, PR Bombing Popular Liberation Army

4/5/1992 New York, NY Hostile Takeover Mujahedin-E-Khalq
11/19/1992 Urbana, IL Attempted Firebombing Mexican Revolutionary Movement
12/10/1992 Chicago, IL Car Fire and Attempted Boricua Revolutionary Front
Firebombing (2)
2/26/1993 New York, NY Car Bombing International Islamist Extremists 6 1042
7/20-22/93 Tacoma, WA Multiple Bombings (2) American Front Skinheads
11/27-28/93 Chicago, IL Firebombings (9) Animal Liberation Front

3/1/1994 New York, NY Shooting Rashid Najib Baz 1 3
4/19/1995 Oklahoma City, OK Truck Bombing Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols 168 754
(Michael Fortier found guilty of failing to alert authorities of plot)

4/1/1996 Spokane, WA Pipe Bombing/Bank Robbery Spokane Bank Robbers
7/12/1996 Spokane, WA Pipe Bombing/Bank Robbery Spokane Bank Robbers
7/27/1996 Atlanta, GA Pipe Bombing Eric Robert Rudolph 2 112
1/2/1997 Washington, DC Letter Bombing Unknown
Leavenworth, KS (Counted as 1 incident)
1/16/1997 Atlanta, GA Bombing of Abortion Clinic Eric Robert Rudolph 8
2/21/1997 Atlanta, GA Bombing of Alternative Lifestyle Nightclub Eric Robert Rudolph 5
1/29/1998 Birmingham, AL Bombing of Reproductive Services Clinic Eric Robert Rudolph 1 1
3/31/1998 Arecibo, PR Bombing of Superaqueduct Construction Project Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros
6/9/1998 Rio Piedras, PR Bombing of Bank Branch Office Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros
6/25/1998 Santa Isabel, PR Bombing of Bank Branch Office Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros suspected 1
6/27/1998 Espanola, NM Arson Raymond Anthony Sandoval
10/19/1998 Vail, CO Arson Fire at Ski Resort Earth Liberation Front
3/19/1999 Santa Fe, NM Attempted Bombing Raymond Anthony Sandoval
3/27/1999 Franklin Township, NJ Bombing of Circus Vehicles Animal Liberation Front
4/5/1999 Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN Malicious Destruction and Theft Animal Liberation Front
5/9/1999 Eugene, OR Bombing Animal Liberation Front
7/2-4/99 Chicago, IL Multiple Shootings Benjamin Nathaniel Smith 2 8
Skokie, IL
Northbrook, IL
Bloomington, IN
8/10/1999 Granada Hills, CA Multiple Shootings Buford O’Neal Furrow 1 5
8/28-29/99 Orange, CA Malicious Destruction and Theft Animal Liberation Front
10/24/1999 Bellingham, WA Malicious Destruction and Theft Animal Liberation Front
11/20/1999 Puyallup, WA Malicious Destruction Animal Liberation Front
12/25/1999 Monmouth, OR Arson Earth Liberation Front
12/31/1999 East Lansing, MI Arson Earth Liberation Front
1/3/2000 Petaluma, CA Incendiary Attack Animal Liberation Front
1/15/2000 Petaluma, CA Incendiary Attack Animal Liberation Front
1/22/2000 Bloomington, IN Arson Earth Liberation Front
5/7/2000 Olympia, WA Arson Revenge of the Trees
7/2/2000 North Vernon, IN Arson Animal Liberation Front
7/20/2000 Rhinelander, WI Vandalism Earth Liberation Front
12/1/2000 Phoenix, AZ Multiple Arsons Mark Warren Sands
12/9-30/00 Suffolk County, Long Island, NY Multiple Arsons Earth Liberation Front
1/2/2001 Glendale, OR Arson Earth Liberation Front
2/20/2001 Visalia, CA Arson Earth Liberation Front
3/9/2001 Culpeper, VA Tree Spiking Earth Liberation Front
3/30/2001 Eugene, OR Arson Earth Liberation Front
4/15/2001 Portland, OR Arson Earth Liberation Front
5/17/2001 Harrisburg, PA Bank Robbery Clayton Lee Waagner
5/21/2001 Seattle, WA Arson Earth Liberation Front
5/21/2001 Clatskanie, OR Arson Earth Liberation Front
7/24/2001 Stateline, NV Destruction of Property Earth Liberation Front
9/9/2001 Morgantown, WV Bank Robbery Clayton Lee Waagner
9/11/2001 New York, NY Aircraft Attack Al-Qa’ida 2972 est. 12000
Washington, DC
New Cumberland, PA
9/01-11/01 New York, NY Bacillus anthracis Unknown 5 17
Washington, DC Mailings
Lantana, FL
10/14/2001 Litchfield, CA Arson Earth Liberation Front
11/12/2001 San Diego, CA Burglary and Vandalism Animal Liberation Front
3/18/2002 Erie, PA Vandalism Earth Liberation Front
3/24/2002 Erie, PA Arson Earth Liberation Front
5/11-12/02 Harborcreek, PA Vandalism/Destruction of Property Earth Liberation Front/ Animal Liberation Front
7/4/2002 Los Angeles, CA Shooting Hesham Mohamed Ali Hedayat 2
8/02-10/02 Henrico and Goochland Counties, VA Vandalism and Destruction of Property Earth Liberation Front
8/11/2002 Warren, PA Arson Earth Liberation Front
9/15-16/02 Harborcreek, PA Vandalism/Destruction of Property Earth Liberation Front/ Animal Liberation Front
11/26/2002 Harborcreek, PA Arson Earth Liberation Front/ Animal Liberation Front
1/1/2003 Girard, PA Arson Earth Liberation Front
3/3/2003 Chico, CA Vandalism Animal Liberation Front
8/03-9/03 San Diego, CA Arson Earth Liberation Front
8/22/2003 West Covina, CA Vandalism and Destruction of Property Earth Liberation Front
8/28/2003 Emeryville, CA Bombing Daniel Andreas San Diego Suspected
9/26/2003 Pleasanton, CA Bombing Daniel Andreas San Diego Suspected
1/19/2004 Henrico County, VA Arson Earth Liberation Front Suspected
4/1/2004 Oklahoma City, OK Arson Sean Michael Gillespie/Aryan Nations
4/20/2004 Redmond, WA Vandalism and Arson Earth Liberation Front
5/04-7/04 Provo, UT Vandalism and Arson Animal Liberation Front
12/27/2004 Lincoln, CA Attempted Arson Earth Liberation Front
1/05-2/05 Auburn, CA Attempted Arson and Arson Earth Liberation Front
Sutter Creek, CA
4/13/2005 Sammanish, WA Arson Earth Liberation Front
7/7/2005 Los Angeles, CA Attempted Arson Animal rights extremists Suspected
9/16/2005 Los Angeles, CA Attempted Arson Animal Liberation Front
11/20/2005 Hagerstown, MD Arson Earth Liberation Front

_________________

obv skewed by including Puerto Rico. They can't even vote in general elections!

_________________

If it's good enough for the FBI, it's good enough for me.

_________________

These are some interesting questions, and I hope whatever thoughts I can provide form a somewhat helpful response, though I doubt it.

You're right - any document must be interpreted. You probably already knew this, but before the printing press and widespread literacy, many if not most religious traditions gave rise to a select, transregional group of scholars whose job it was to interpret and transmit religious knowledge. So my first point would be that, in terms of Islamic history, the question of responsibility vis-a-vis interpreting was quite clear - the learned class and the tradition of scholarship they developed over the course of several hundred years.

In terms of your next set of questions about historical or literal interpretations and so on, these questions were resolved early on, and formed the structure on which other works of scholarship were built throughout subsequent years. For Islamic scholars, though it may be similar for Christian and Jewish scholars as well, there are parts of scripture which are understood historically, like tales of war, pious followers, and so on, and parts of scripture which are a bit more here and now, like family law. But even in things like law, there is a subset of fixed and not-fixed categories, or issues that should persist, like refraining from pork, and other issues on which there is more flexibility depending on place and time. The distinctions between historical, literal, fixed and not fixed, and so on, is again clear, as explained and supported by several hundred years of scholarship.

As you know, there is no central ruling authority/church in Islam, so the body of scholarship around it is self-sustained through generations of scholars who work with the conclusions of preceding scholars. What's particularly challenging about the modern situation of religious knowledge are two factors: the gradual decline of the voices of traditional scholarship during and after the colonial period, and the rise of newly literate voices offering their two cents on religious knowledge during the same colonial period. While new voices are not necessarily a bad thing--there has been plenty of work done by new reformist voices with regards to certain law codes that are quite problematic in a post-industrial revolution world--they have also given rise to the likes of self-proclaimed "experts" who forward nontraditional interpretation and viewpoints.

So within observant Muslim circles, I'd say the key is really discrediting nontraditional interpretations that are not supported historically and/or empirically - therefore illegitimate. Of course, others are of the view that the whole thing needs to go, i.e. religion itself, but that's not realistically going to happen, and least not now. It's incredibly difficult to discredit evil voices when states themselves are in disarray, and when states are weak, you cut into the capacity of civil society to form a vibrant culture within which national norms are clear, and undesirable voices are expelled to the fringes of society. Sort of like what we have hear when we hear of certain extremist groups and/or cults. We somewhat uniformly recognize what's mainstream, what's not, and so on. We do that with the comfort of a strong state, working institutions, recognized structures of authority, and a culture that is both formed by and reinforces state apparatuses. That kind of context does not exist in many places in the Muslim world, which is partly why nontraditional interpretations continue to persist.

I apologize for the length of my post, and I hope I addressed some or all of your interesting questions.

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BLASPHEMY!

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These guys were treated like the Russian Whitey bulgers by the FBI, what a joke.

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Is it really all that different from the idiots dancing in the streets the night we killed Bin Laden?
That was embarrassing.

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If this has already been touched on earlier in this thread, sorry ... to a degree ... I'm not losing sleep over it being a potential repeat.

Okay, so

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/national_world&id=9073711

shows the following as its second and third paragraphs:

A senior law enforcement official also told ABC News that FBI negotiators tried for roughly 20 to 25 minutes to convince suspect number two, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, to give himself up. Officials say there was a verbal exchange between them and the suspect, and then the 19-year-old eventually fell out of the boat.

Dzhokhar sustained a gunshot wound to the neck, raising questions over whether he will ever be able to talk again. Officials are trying to determine if the wound to the neck was self-inflicted.

Am I nuts, or does that say, right next to each other essentially, that they had a VERBAL exchange with the fella, and right in the next paragraph says he can't talk?

There were no gunshots AFTER the fella decided to hop in the boat, just flashbangs, meaning whenever he got shot in the neck happened at some point before his pretend sea voyage began.

He can't talk .... but we talked with him.

Huh?!?

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- Henry George

It's not my SWAT team, but I'm on that SWAT team.

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The best part is that Chas didn't even see it. VeganFan and JORR were the uncles sitting around the table on Thanksgiving, while Chas was the child in the other room throwing a tantrum, until somebody put Elmo on the TV.

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<º)))><

Waiting for the time when I can finally say
That this has all been wonderful, but now I'm on my way

That's not correct.

As far as point 1 is concerned, I have no idea the number of Muslims who desire to live under Shariah law, but I am quite comfortable stating that whatever the number is, it's quite a bit larger and more significant than a fringe Christian group like the KKK, which even in its "golden age" was comprised of a relatively small number of so-called Christians, let alone something like Westboro Baptist which is simply one small family of douchebags.

Further, there is no canonical basis for the beliefs of the KKK, as the number one teaching in the Bible is to be Christ-like in one's behavior. I understand Shariah law to be a codification of the tenets for living laid out in the Q'ran. Am I mistaken in that regard?

Finally, I haven't read the entire discussion yet, but leashyourkids brought up a point I have in the past regarding religions and the basis for them. For example, I don't see how one can be a Catholic but be in favor of abortion, uh, I mean a woman's right to choose. But there are many people who identify as "Catholics" who believe just that.

With regard to point 2, I have no idea about "hate". That's an emotion, and who knows about the emotions of others? But it is my understanding that part of a Muslim's duty is to attempt to convert non-believers and that once confronted with the opportunity to convert and refusing, one is viewed as an infidel. At least in certain growing circles of Muslim belief.

I have one more question for you: After the "Arab Spring" when large populations have been free to choose the governments they desire, what have they chosen?

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Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I'm assuming typo and they meant "walk".

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Where does this understanding come from?

Not being a smart ass. My muslim knowledge comes from a sophomore year religion class and the media, I havent studied it vastly.

From what I've read. I'm no expert myself, but I think some things are obvious. There is definitely a rising anti-Western sentiment among Muslims worldwide and part of that is a sort of "manifest destiny" for Islam. The mainstream media is very careful to draw a distinction between Muslims and "Islamists", but at some point a faction may be so large and powerful as to make such distinction unclear. That's why I think the KKK analogy is a bad one. The KKK was never a threat to be the strongest voice of Christianity.

People are people. There was a time when Christianity operated in a similar fashion, i.e., the Crusades. It's not a Muslim condition. But we're talking about current circumstances. Poverty, the young age of many Muslims, hopelessness, certain military actions taken by the West, all these things have coalesced to create a situation.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Score one for Dershowitz.

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pretty much 2/3 of your posts are Tweets

Electrocute this kid.