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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:13 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Drop In wrote:
I'd like to again mention what a stupid thread topic this is in many ways. However, I couldn't find a more immediate spot to post this little nugget.

Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN 2m
When Ryu came up for bid, the Cubs bid about $15m on posting fee, Rangers $18m; Dodgers crushed others with $25.7m -- plus $36m contract.


But Theo may have wanted to outbid everyone and wasn't allowed to do so. We don't really know, but I think it's become more than clear that Theo isn't the only one making baseball decisions.


I like to think of it as Tom Ricketts isn't the only one making financial decisions.

The best thing that can happen to this team is Joe Ricketts taking over.

Or the Ricketts selling


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:18 am 
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Looks like I changed the sentiment of Cubbie Nation on this board. Only a few holdouts still exist.

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:21 am 
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You did nothing with your non sensical Theo hate/trolling.

You've been trying to call a Great GM who won 2 WS in 4 years bad since he got here and you have made zero progress.

Almost no one has been a fan of Ricketts from the beginning.


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:24 am 
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But Bryan, you or I could lose 100 games for a couple years in a row. There doesn't seem to be a very high standard in calling him "great" right now. When does he actually start to be judged on what his team is doing? Next year? 2015? 2020?

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:25 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
You've been trying to call a Great GM who won 2 WS in 4 years bad since he got here and you have made zero progress.
I don't remember ever calling Theo Epstein bad. When did I do that?

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:26 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
You've been trying to call a Great GM who won 2 WS in 4 years bad since he got here and you have made zero progress.
I don't remember ever calling Theo Epstein bad. When did I do that?

Since he was hired, you have attempted to discredit all the success he had in Boston.

Which is hilarious considering your opinion of one time WS winner Kenny Williams.


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:29 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
But Bryan, you or I could lose 100 games for a couple years in a row. There doesn't seem to be a very high standard in calling him "great" right now. When does he actually start to be judged on what his team is doing? Next year? 2015? 2020?

Im judging him now.

My great comment referred to his time in Boston. It was great. There is no discussion on that.

I have been consistent in my expectation. I was willing to give him two years to figure shit out. Next year, its time to compete.


But as you have been saying, Theo may not have the control he was promised.

Ricketts is not a successful person outside of being in the lucky sperm club


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:31 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Since he was hired, you have attempted to discredit all the success he had in Boston.
No, I haven't. I've brought up some advantages he had in Boston. I challenge you to find a post where I said he doesn't get any credit for what happened in Boston.
rogers park bryan wrote:
Which is hilarious considering your opinion of one time WS winner Kenny Williams.
There it is. You saved me a lot of time today by showing your bias here. This isn't about Theo. This is about you and your opinions of the job Kenny Williams did.

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:36 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Since he was hired, you have attempted to discredit all the success he had in Boston.
No, I haven't. I've brought up some advantages he had in Boston. I challenge you to find a post where I said he doesn't get any credit for what happened in Boston.

Your frequent comments about the Red Sox having a big payroll are designed to discredit Theo.

They were in the context of people saying Theo was good. I dont have to post it, we both know its there.


rogers park bryan wrote:
Which is hilarious considering your opinion of one time WS winner Kenny Williams.
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
There it is. You saved me a lot of time today by showing your bias here. This isn't about Theo. This is about you and your opinions of the job Kenny Williams did.

No, its not at all.

You seem EXTREMELY impressed by one World Series win in 12 years and EXTREMELY unimpressed with two in 10 years, I find that odd.

I guess some bias is involved on your part.


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:48 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Your frequent comments about the Red Sox having a big payroll are designed to discredit Theo.

They were in the context of people saying Theo was good. I dont have to post it, we both know its there.
You seem to be backtracking. First, it was that I said he was bad. Then, it was that I was trying to "discredit all the success he had in Boston". Now, it's that mentioning the fact that he had a payroll advantage over almost every other team was designed to discredit him. At least you are getting more accurate. The team you GM for matters, and it's more than fair to bring up the advantages the Red Sox had in recent years. You know, the same thing that others do for Billy Beane and Andrew Friedman in making excuses for them why they don't have a ring?

This is why I wanted you to post the actual quotes, because you are mischaracterizing them.
rogers park bryan wrote:
No, its not at all.
You brought up Kenny Williams in a completely unrelated thread. Yeah, it's at least a little bit about Kenny.
rogers park bryan wrote:
You seem EXTREMELY impressed by one World Series win and very unimpressed with two, I find that odd.
You are just remembering what you want to here. I'm impressed by any World Series win, even if you did it with the highest payroll in baseball like the Yankees.

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:52 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Drop In wrote:
I'd like to again mention what a stupid thread topic this is in many ways. However, I couldn't find a more immediate spot to post this little nugget.

Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN 2m
When Ryu came up for bid, the Cubs bid about $15m on posting fee, Rangers $18m; Dodgers crushed others with $25.7m -- plus $36m contract.


But Theo may have wanted to outbid everyone and wasn't allowed to do so. We don't really know, but I think it's become more than clear that Theo isn't the only one making baseball decisions.


I like to think of it as Tom Ricketts isn't the only one making financial decisions.

The best thing that can happen to this team is Joe Ricketts taking over.

Or the Ricketts selling


I really get the feeling that Joe Ricketts is sitting in the backround as the administration reduces payroll to nothing and increases the value of the stadium waiting to well this team. It really makes perfect sense if you think about it. The team will probably achieve the maximum return on investment in about one year. It would be a perfect time to sell before going through the renovations.

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:58 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Your frequent comments about the Red Sox having a big payroll are designed to discredit Theo.

They were in the context of people saying Theo was good. I dont have to post it, we both know its there.
You seem to be backtracking. First, it was that I said he was bad. Then, it was that I was trying to "discredit all the success he had in Boston". Now, it's that mentioning the fact that he had a payroll advantage over almost every other team was designed to discredit him. At least you are getting more accurate. The team you GM for matters, and it's more than fair to bring up the advantages the Red Sox had in recent years. You know, the same thing that others do for Billy Beane and Andrew Friedman in making excuses for them why they don't have a ring?

There is no mischaracterization
You go out of your way to discredit Epstein and have since he was hired because he was hired by The Cubs. It's obvious to all who read this board.

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Yeah, it's at least a little bit about Kenny.

No, its not. Its just an easy thing to bring up to show how biased you are. You have argued pages and pages on this board about how good of a GM Kenny Williams is, so when you try and discredit someone with far more success, it naturally comes up.

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
You are just remembering what you want to here. I'm impressed by any World Series win, even if you did it with the highest payroll in baseball like the Yankees.

No, Im remembering that since there was even talk of Theo Epstein possibly getting hired, you have attempted to marginalize his success and at the same time you pump up Kenny Williams.

Its obvious bias.

That's all there is to it.


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:05 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
There is no mischaracterization
Of course there was and that is why you refuse to find any place I said those things. You've finally reached some things that are closer to the truth of what I said.
rogers park bryan wrote:
No, its not. Its just an easy thing to bring up to show how biased you are. You have argued pages and pages on this board about how good of a GM Kenny Williams is, so when you try and discredit someone with far more success, it naturally comes up.
Kenny was a good GM. I'm sorry for thinking he was.

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:09 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
There is no mischaracterization
Of course there was and that is why you refuse to find any place I said those things. You've finally reached some things that are closer to the truth of what I said.

No, I brought up your bias with obvious examples. That's it. You value 1 Championship in 13 years more than 2 in 10.


rogers park bryan wrote:
No, its not. Its just an easy thing to bring up to show how biased you are. You have argued pages and pages on this board about how good of a GM Kenny Williams is, so when you try and discredit someone with far more success, it naturally comes up.
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Kenny was a good GM. I'm sorry for thinking he was.

Agreed, Kenny was a good GM.


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:11 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
No, I brought up your bias with obvious examples. That's it. You value 1 Championship in 13 years more than 2 in 10.
Please post the link to where I said this. This is now at least the third thing in this thread you have attributed to me that I have no recollection of ever saying.

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:14 am 
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Bryan is doing a masterful bit of trolling.

Well done.

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:16 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
No, I brought up your bias with obvious examples. That's it. You value 1 Championship in 13 years more than 2 in 10.
Please post the link to where I said this. This is now at least the third thing in this thread you have attributed to me that I have no recollection of ever saying.

Rick, Im not up for playing Obtuse Rick today.

No, you never flat out said that. You just heap tons of praise on the guy with one title and consistently question the guy with two.


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:18 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
No, you never flat out said that.
Find a quote of mine where I come close to saying that please.

So you are now 0/3. You really Adam Dunn'd in this thread.

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:21 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
No, you never flat out said that.
Find a quote of mine where I come close to saying that please.

So you are now 0/3. You really Adam Dunn'd in this thread.

http://score670.com/phpBB/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=704

No, Im not.

Im right. That's why you're getting so worked up.

You are biased against Theo and for Kenny. Its not even surprising.

Its just when you accuse someone of bias, you should be sure you havent spent years praising one person for half the success of another due to....your own bias


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:22 am 
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Terry's Peeps wrote:
Bryan is doing a masterful bit of trolling.

Well done.

Thank you.

Some of us admit bias and some of us pretend to be objective.


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:24 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Its just when you accuse someone of bias, you should be sure you havent spent years praising one person for half the success of another due to....your own bias
...and yet you can't provide even one quote about those years! :lol:

Why would I be mad? I clearly won. I dropped the Scorehead rule on you thrice and you failed.

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:24 am 
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BTW, I challenge Rick to find ONE instance in the last three years where he gives any credit to Theo and his two World Series titles, without couching it with payroll or something else.

I can find many instances where Kenny is afforded that luxury.


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:27 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Its just when you accuse someone of bias, you should be sure you havent spent years praising one person for half the success of another due to....your own bias
...and yet you can't provide even one quote about those years! :lol:

Why would I be mad? I clearly won. I dropped the Scorehead rule on you thrice and you failed.

No, you've clearly lost.

Im not looking up your posts for you. I respect you and your thoughts and we both know that you have been bias FOR Kenny and Against Theo


Do you even deny that?


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:31 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
BTW, I challenge Rick to find ONE instance in the last three years where he gives any credit to Theo and his two World Series titles, without couching it with payroll or something else.

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
And I just showed you how much better Theo's track recrod is, but you see them as equals.
I didn't say they were equals. I'd say Theo is better. The gap is not that huge. You give Kenny Williams a massive payroll advantage over all the other teams but one and he'd have more playoff appearances too.


http://www.score670.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=1462371#p1462371

Since I already know what your response will be, please note that my mention of payroll is ONLY in regards to Kenny Williams.

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:31 am 
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Friedman is the best GM in the business. If the cubs are not. 500 or better next year I will start to call Theo a failure.

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:33 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
BTW, I challenge Rick to find ONE instance in the last three years where he gives any credit to Theo and his two World Series titles, without couching it with payroll or something else.

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
And I just showed you how much better Theo's track recrod is, but you see them as equals.
I didn't say they were equals. I'd say Theo is better. The gap is not that huge. You give Kenny Williams a massive payroll advantage over all the other teams but one and he'd have more playoff appearances too.


http://www.score670.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=1462371#p1462371

Since I already know what your response will be, please note that my mention of payroll is ONLY in regards to Kenny Williams.

:lol:

You know my response because the only quote you found completely supports my side. You cant give Theo any credit without couching it with something that takes credit away

Thank you for proving my point


Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Yankees had the highest payroll from 2001-2008 and won 0 WS. Boston won 2 in that time.

The fact is Theo Epstein used Sabermetrics to put together his team and theyve had a bunch of success.
He also outspent everyone but the Yankees, who happen to have 5 titles since Billy Beane "changed the way the game is played".

rogers park bryan wrote:
You asked for proof and I gave it to you.
That's not proof though. It's more likely that having the second highest payroll in all of baseball is what did it.


That wasnt difficult


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:37 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
BTW, I challenge Rick to find ONE instance in the last three years where he gives any credit to Theo and his two World Series titles, without couching it with payroll or something else.

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
And I just showed you how much better Theo's track recrod is, but you see them as equals.
I didn't say they were equals. I'd say Theo is better. The gap is not that huge. You give Kenny Williams a massive payroll advantage over all the other teams but one and he'd have more playoff appearances too.


http://www.score670.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=1462371#p1462371

Since I already know what your response will be, please note that my mention of payroll is ONLY in regards to Kenny Williams.

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Yankees had the highest payroll from 2001-2008 and won 0 WS. Boston won 2 in that time.

The fact is Theo Epstein used Sabermetrics to put together his team and theyve had a bunch of success.
He also outspent everyone but the Yankees, who happen to have 5 titles since Billy Beane "changed the way the game is played".

rogers park bryan wrote:
You asked for proof and I gave it to you.
That's not proof though. It's more likely that having the second highest payroll in all of baseball is what did it.


That wasnt difficult
That's why context is so important. That's not even an argument about how good of a GM Theo is! It's an argument between whether Sabermetrics or payroll is more important for winning titles.

I doubt Theo himself would even say that Sabermetrics was more important than payroll in terms of winning.

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:38 am 
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In both our examples, you took credit away from Theo by citing payroll.

Is this a bit?


Do you deny bias FOR Kenny and AGAINST Theo?


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:49 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
In both our examples, you took credit away from Theo by citing payroll.
There is a big difference between acknowledging the help provided by payroll and discrediting someone because of payroll. That seems to be what you don't get as evidenced by the three completely wrong stances you've attributed to me in this thread. As I said, it's not that much different than the excuses made for Beane and Friedman for not winning titles. Payroll matters in a league with no salary cap.

I just don't see mentioning fairly obvious factors that gave advantages as discrediting someone or something. In my opinion, it would be ignorant to ignore the advantages that Theo had in Boston. He still gets credit for winning. Many other GM's have advantages and fail to deliver.

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 10:06 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
In both our examples, you took credit away from Theo by citing payroll.
There is a big difference between acknowledging the help provided by payroll and discrediting someone because of payroll. That seems to be what you don't get as evidenced by the three completely wrong stances you've attributed to me in this thread. As I said, it's not that much different than the excuses made for Beane and Friedman for not winning titles. Payroll matters in a league with no salary cap.

No, Im right. When talking Billy Beane, payroll doesnt matter and he hasnt even won a world series. When talking about Theo, it does matter.


Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I just don't see mentioning fairly obvious factors that gave advantages as discrediting someone or something. In my opinion, it would be ignorant to ignore the advantages that Theo had in Boston. He still gets credit for winning. Many other GM's have advantages and fail to deliver.

You overstate the advantages and you do it every chance you get.

Because you're biased on this topic.


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