The people crapping Rose and B&B both got shotgunned. They may have been a tad long, but I'd wager that if either one of them had been e-craps for Lance Armstrong or someone affiliated with Penn St. he would have read them in their entirety.

Agree queazy, n you can tell how hard someone is swinging a bat or fist without feeling impact. Bad crap, segment blows.

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Bernstein says that Sabonis was arguably the best player in the world in 1988... uh, no. Another stupid thought by this clown. Sabonis was an ultra talented player but his competition was crap, the European talent back then was mediocre at best. This is also when Jordan won his first league MVP and had defensive player of the year. Bird and Magic were also still incredible players, Bird was out of his mind that year.

This is apropos of nothing, but I was at Dominick's earlier, and a woman in the produce section was hawking one of those superknives that sharpens itself as it cuts through solid granite or whatever. Anyway, she vouched for the quality of her company by saying they're "the manufacturers of the most-advertised products in America." I couldn't help but think, what kind of soulless, market-fetishizing weirdo would base their consumer decisions on how frequently a product is advertised?

And then, big as life, as if he were standing there next to me, a face appeared in my mind:

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The Bulls haven't done anything wrong, and they're not going to do anything wrong.

Well, as much as it pains me, I'm going to have to stick up for the wee fellow:



In fairness, I believe dan would say that TWTW is reflected in the other stats- the ones that can actually be counted.



That's not so ridiculous. He was a monster in the Olympics. I don't think we ever saw Sabonis at his best in the NBA as he was significantly injured prior to coming over, as well as just being generally beaten down from playing nearly constantly between '85 and '88.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
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I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Yes, we didn't see the best of him in the NBA but again to claim that he was the best player in the world is going too far. Jordan was at the beginning of his peak in 88', his overall game and athleticism was astonishing. Bird and Magic were also still in their primes and to claim that a European (no matter how good he was) who had sub-par competition was better than them is ridiculous. There is little to back up this claim, just the usual B&B b.s.

So what? A dominating center is always better than a shooting guard.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Always? No, not always. Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, Moses, and Nate Thurmond aren't better than Jordan. That's a ridiculous argument.

I remember being in middle school and there were these rumors about this russian guy sabonis. he was like 7'5" and built like Ivan Drago. 'course nobody ever actually saw the guy play at the time.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Well, first we have to define what we each mean by the very subjective term "better". Beyond that, I think Sabonis was quite possibly a superior player to all of those centers you mention save perhaps Olajuwan. The fetishization of Michael Jordan has reached absurd proportions. To think that he could impact a game more than guys like Chamberlain or Kareem is what's really ridiculous.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
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I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

It's ridiculous? This is a guy who could average 32 points while still shooting 54% from the field, as a guard. He could also shut down players as a defender. In 89' when he was asked to play point guard he did it, and did it incredibly well. He was dominating on both sides of court and was efficient as hell. He also had rock solid fundamentals. Chamberlain and Jabbar being 7 ft + does not instantly make them more valuable. Jordan played much bigger than his size and dominated his generation like few athletes have ever done. To suggest that people are fetishizing him is ridiculous. His career is as acclaimed as it is for a reason. To act like Kareem was on a different level is just absurd.

Jordan obviously wasn't your typical superstar guard. He was unguardable and also a great defensive player. He was the ringleader of a 6x champion, it's fair to say he had a rather large impact.

Cmon JORR

Always?

Jordan played against Ewing Olajuwon Robinson and Shaq in their primes and he was more dominating than any of them

Chamberlain and Jabaar are the two best centers ever. You can make a case for both guys affecting games more than Jordan but thats the whole list.

Why does virtually every player including Magic Bird etc say MJ was best? They in on the fetishization?

He never shot 54%. He's under 50% over his career. If he's so great, why do we have to lie about him? His career is acclaimed because Nike promoted the living shit out of him. It's not that he wasn't a great player. Of course he was. But this idea that he somehow stands head and shoulders above all the other great players is absurd. Chamberlain and Jabbar are great because of how much they scored and how much the rebounded and the way they defended the basket. Their height was just a tool, no different than Jordan's quickness or jumping ability. I absolutely hate when someone says with regard to a great center, "well, he was just tall". As if that negates what he did. It's no different than saying "well, he could just see great" about Magic or "well, he was just a great shooter and passer" about Bird or "well, he could just jump high" about Jordan.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Was he more dominating? He shot more and he scored more. He played with a top 50 player in Scottie. Or is Scottie just some bum when we want to elevate Jordan?

I don't think every player says Jordan was "the best". I heard a great interview with John Salley on Mully & Hanley recently and Salley suggested quite the opposite. He said Jordan's peers- him being one- don't see him the same way as the media and the public. A great player? Yeah, but not greater than many others across the eras. Mully accused Salley of being jealous and Salley laughed and said he wasn't on Jordan's level so why would he be jealous. Mully said he hated him because of playing for Detroit and Salley said, I played with him in Chicago, remember? He said he loved Jordan because when they went out he would pick up the broad Jordan didn't want and she was always super hot. But he absolutely believes Jordan's image as "the best that ever was" is purely a creation of Nike and advertising and marketing. I agree.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

His biggest impact was on the way players and shoes are marketed.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Absolutely ridiculous. The two best players of this era modeled their entire game after Jordan


I believe, that JORR decided early on in Jordan's career that he was being overrated and decided that he would never be the best, no matter what. Too many taller players.

God disguised as Michael Jordan
-Bird

He's the greatest to ever play the game
-Magic

Barkley told the hosts that he knows Michael is the greatest player to play the game


There are the three biggest voices of that generation and two of them could be in the GOAT conversation themselves

JORR is right and wrong. Dominant centers used to be more important. However, the switchover happened in the 80s and was all but finished in the 90s. Rule changes, most importantly the 3 point line and how guard play is officiated made someone like Jordan significantly more valuable than any player. That's why he basically didn't lose in the 90s except his half year and the first year.

You can even see it with Shaq. He was as close to as physically dominant as we'll see to Wilt but he didn't have the same impact and was at least comparable to Kobe Bryant in terms of importance.

Even now, there are any number of wing players you'd take over any center. Even incredibly skilled tall players have learned that guards matter more.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

It's certainly not ridiculous. Jordan is a far bigger star in marketing circles than he ever was in the NBA. I bet he's got his fuckin' Hanes on you right now.

I don't know if he's overrated or not. He was a great, great player. But the idea that it's better to win championships with guards than with a dominating center is silly. I do think you've hit on something there with guys modeling their games. You might be able to dream of being "like Mike". You could never dream of being like Wilt.

I know it's a losing battle discussing Jordan realistically with Chicagoans. He's the best ever as if that were an undisputed truth in the same way a yard is three feet.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I agree with most of that, but I don't think you'd be taking the wing players because they're anywhere near as important as a center, even in today's game. There just aren't any real quality centers. I'm not sure why that is. Probably because they too wanted to "be like Mike" and refused to learn the big man skills that made the centers of the past so great.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

you can't teach size

And you are calling Chicagoans unrealisitic? He was a fucking supernova from the day he stepped on an NBA court. Do you have a personal bias agianst him?

Im not a Jordan freak. No Jordans, Hanes or anything else.



Yes, the best ever imo and that opinion is certainly not ridiculous



No one said that and the idea that the one way to win a championship is better than another is silly

However you win, that's the best way




Realistically?

You act like Jordan was just a really good player and anyone who knows basketball knows Wilt and Kareem are better.

You're the one not being realistic.

Ive always contended its either Jordan or Wilt and its virtually impossible to compare the two.

And I dont dismiss the idea of Kareen, Oscar, Kobe, or LeBron being in the discussion, I just happen to think its Jordan

You think its because Im from Chicago and marketing. I contend its (Scoring, defense, championships, clutch play, level of overall dominance)

You are coming off like how you are projecting Chicagoans.

To act like Jordan is certainly NOT the greatest is silly.

JORR IS being silly. Was Jordie the BEST ever? I dunno. Was he right in there with the top 5 of all time? Obviously.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

I'm saying Chicagoans are biased in his favor. You could say the same thing about Chicagoans with regard to Walter Payton. I don't have anything against Jordan. I see him for exactly what he was- the best shooting guard ever.



And my opinion is that it's silly to declare a "best ever".



No doubt. But it's fairly widely accepted that a great big man is better than a great small man. I'd say that's something in Jordan's favor. It's much more difficult to build a team around a shooting guard than around a dominant center. In fact, until the Bulls did it, many basketball people believed it could not be done.



Let's put it this way, Jordan played more recently and in an era in which the NBA exploded due to Bird and Magic and, in no small part, to Jordan himself. It's easier to forget guys further back and today's fans often dismiss the past foolishly. For example, there's a reason why the second greatest White Sox player ever has no statue and guys like Baines and Fisk do. Most people wouldn't even know who the fuck Luke Appling was. So naturally people want to say they have seen the best. That's why there's such a groundswell to anoint LeBron James. But I would guess that if Wilt, Kareem, and Jordan were all coming out in the same draft tomorrow and every GM knew exactly what they would turn out to be, Jordan would be the consensus number three pick.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

If you could do a draft right now of the top 5 players you'd want to build your team around for the next 5 years I doubt a center even makes the list.
That's a side effect of how the game is played and what is important. 20 years ago, Lebron James looks a lot like Karl Malone and plays a lot like him. The lack of quality centers is because 7 foot players play like guards as much as they can. Being a dominant center has been devalued at nearly all levels. It's just like how true point guards aren't really valuable any more. Point guards play like shooting guards, and post players play like small forwards used to.

If being a dominant center was the best way to win, there would be centers all over the place. Instead, we get at most one at a time, and even that person is just so big they can't really play the way that is the most effective.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

THURSDAY AT 5.

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Touche'.

Really though, sometimes things are so overwhelming as to erase all doubt. But I guess some Lakers fans might try to make a case for Kobe.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I'm open to your argument there. But I think it's more likely that throwing the ball into the post is just boring- for both player and viewer- and as such, has fallen out of favor. I suspect we will see dominating centers again at some point.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

So you are biased against guards?


Well, were kind of past that point. Didnt you post Magic was the best ever?


Right, even at a position that was traditionally not the dominant, he dominated.



Well, now you're talking about Fantasy GMing. Im not sure that's the best way to judge the best ever.

And, I sincerely doubt it would be a consensus, especially in today's game. That kind of thinking led to Oden over Durant.