And I dont hear a lot of Chicagoans saying Walter was the GOAT.

I mean, you must be talking to some REAL homers, JORR

Adrian Peterson is better than Walter

Him and like 3 or 4 other RB's

I wouldn't say that. I'm not biased against first basemen either. I just know they aren't as important as shortstops.



No, I've said there's a strong case to be made that he was better than Jordan. I don't have an overriding desire to declare anyone the "best ever".



But I think that illustrates my point. Basketball people generally consider the gamble on a big man to be worth the risk instead of taking the smaller guy who appears more of a sure thing. We can run down the first round big men busts for hours if you want. I know that.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Dude, give me your top 10 1B and SSs of all time and tell me that again with a straight face.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

I think you just made the point.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

JORR, ultimately the size doesnt matter. Whatever size they were, they got certain results.

Jordan's results are the best ever.

Bullshit; your personal crusades to besmirch the great names of Steve Garvey, Cecil Cooper, Don Mattingly, and Bill Buckner are all too well known. Why are you lying? Stop lying!!!

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

No, it doesn't. Just because something is uncommon, doesn't make it more important. Theoretically, there are 8 defensive positions and 8 spots in the lineup. one is not more important than the other.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

I think it's pretty presumptuous to suggest that Chicagoans are incapable of having an objective opinion of Michael Jordan. Not everyone is a fanboy. Some people actually watch and study the game.

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Kid Cairo's Boers & Bernstein YouTube Channel

Kid Cairo: 2013 March Madness Tournament Winner!

"Cowabunga? Cowa fucking piece of dog shit! This game is diarrhea coming out of my dick!"

This discussion is like trying to firmly argue which side of the coin is better. The game of basketball has significantly evolved, and the crux of this discussion involves many of those players who brought about that evolution. Thus to each point there is a valid counterpoint.

Wilt was the first athletic big man. He brought about the combination of size, speed, quickness, ruggedness and touch. His arrival transcended the big men before him and those since. Jabbar was the next in the evolutionary process and Shaq is probably the end of that line although his lack of touch is perhaps the biggest reason one could state the end of athletic big man as touch has become a premium.

Jabbar was taller than Wilt, had the speed, and his sky-hook was an element of touch that surpassed Wilt. Jabbar was all but unstoppable because he had a shot that at one point couldn't be defended. Not the physical presence of Wilt, or size, but his shot blocking ability gave him the defensive presence that is now a pre-requisite for a big man. It is Jabbar's touch that has made the center evolve to a face the basket position.

Bird/Magic brought about the game changing era of big men who could handle the ball. As great as Wilt or Jabbar are considered, they still needed a guard to enable them, and the philosophy of countering their game impact was to pressure the ball--a cut off the head approach--and make the point guard work harder and exploit that position's weakness.

Bird was the big man who could handle the ball, pass, and most importantly shoot further from the basket. Bird's impact was that he could move away from the basket and set up a passing angle to exploit the defense. Sag back and he would shoot over the defense, play up and he would dribble to pass, overplay and he would go around you and possibly finish at the rim.

Magic was the big man handling the ball taken to its extreme. His ball handling and passing were enhanced by his size, which enabled him to force the defense to contend with his ability to penetrate and create. He could also go two-man game and pass over the smaller defender or dribble to a spot on the floor and then use the high post to set himself up to post-up down low, and use his size. It wasn't until the way to contend with Magic was to get a bigger quick man to play guard and defend him that he was effectively stopped.

Jordan was the evolution of the "guard" who had speed, explosive quickness, rugged enough to get into the paint and finish at the rim or crash the boards, and the touch (supremely developed over his career) to expand the floor for offense. Kobe, in many ways is/was Jordan 2.0 in that he emulated, if not surpassed, Jordan in multiple aspects.

Lebron is the next evolution in that he embodies Bird, Magic, and Jordan in touch, ball handling, passing, ruggedness, and explosive quickness.

The rules of the NBA game have changed, with the 3-point line possibly having the biggest impact in marginalizing the center. The other thing that has marginalized the center is that starting with Bird/Magic, on to Michael, and now James (and this would include Kevin Durant) is that they can not only rebound but push the ball up the court and run up the backside of the center to draw contact and still finish.

As we watch this year's playoffs there are many big men with some of the same physical attributes of Wilt, and there are very few with the touch of Jabbar. Today's bigmen have to defend the perimeter and because of the 3-point line, teams can go with a smaller lineup and trade 3 points for 2, and sacrifice size.

If we were playing fantasy GM we would find ourselves trying to get the James/Durant qualities (size), and then settling on a Jordan/Kobe type player (touch). The 3-point line and zone defense are what make those the choice over getting a 7-foot tall, back to the basket, low post only player.

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DRINK BƎTTƎR. @theRIPH

Loved that whole thing. Man, so many callers are stupid.

I'd be more inclined to agree with this if the statistics and accomplishments didn't undermine Sally's argument. And I think your position on the difficulties of dominating the game through the SG position seem to undermine some of your argument as well.

Even if you separate all the hype and marketing machine stuff, what would be your argument against anointing a NBA player who won six rings while averaging around 30 6 and 6, 2 steals while shooting around 50% from the floor as the best ever? Him and Wilt are the only NBA players who possess career scoring averages in the 30s. Your point about his scoring being a product of his affinity for shooting would be stronger if MJ hadn't won anything, or if he was horribly inefficient. But he shot 50% and produced six championships.

Again, I just don't see how it's ludicrous to suggest that a 6'4-6'6 SG who averaged 30 6 6 2 and won six championships is the best ever.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

I was sure the guy said "hey bra."

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-- source

Is Jorr actually Berns?

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CSFMB 2014 Nascar Pick 'em Champion

We don’t have a trillion-dollar debt because we haven’t taxed enough; we have a trillion-dollar debt because we spend too much. — Ronald Reagan

No, I have seen them both in the same place.

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Actually, Waddle and Silvy had a very good discussion about Brian Cole's difficulties with assessing the injuries of various Bulls' players over the past few years. Has Bernstein engaged this topic? I would be interested to hear what he has to say about it.

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Bernsie scoffed at that issue yesterday. I dunno if he's competent or not, but if I had any doubts and I were worth $300 million, I'd sure as hell find someone else I did trust.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

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He cleared Omer Asik to play when the guy had a fractured leg. That's not big-boy doctoring.

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You think you know better how to diagnose a broken leg? Why don't you perform open heart surgery on yourself if you think you know better than doctors?

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Brian Cole would've given Kevin Ware some aspirin, taped his tibia up, and sent him back in the game.

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Cole was good enough for Dick Butkus, he's good enough for Rose.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Brian Cole would have sent Reggie Lewis back into the game

Evidently you've never heard of Bill Russell, who I'd posit as better than Jabbar, and having had better results than Wilt. (especially if he's been brought up, I haven't had the time to read the entire thread)




Sounds like Bill Russell to me. But I could be wrong.

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

Oops. Wrong thread.

Other than hand surgery I do it all the time, and that I leave to Dr. Mass.

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DRINK BƎTTƎR. @theRIPH

It's very difficult to perform endoscopic vessel harvesting while anesthetized.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I'm glad to see that JORR's decision to bail on ICB for UDB* paid off. Congrats on graduating magna cum dbag while being able to maintain your major in Douchey Debating!

*University of Daniel Bernstein

Actually, I have a Masters from the University of GFY*.


*Go Fuck Yourself

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I never saw Russell play. I only remember reading about him in those books on the NBA at the grade school library where kids used to put boogers on the pages to make them stick together.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.