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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:11 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
denisdman wrote:
RPB always makes me feel bad. I respect his opinions. I guess I'm just a whack job.

That is not my intention

I just disagree with some things you say. If I didnt respect you, Id just ignore you.


Im not a fan or government either, I guess where we differ is you see the Super Rich as citizens fighting the government and I see them as PART OF the government


Ok thanks. I hate crony capitalism...it is a massive problem. That's why I am a Ron Paul type.

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:12 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
denisdman wrote:
I get it when people think my ideas are crazy. I am a Libertarian. I make no secret of that. I don't believe in a large role for the Federal government. I have reasons for what I believe, and hopefully my posts show that. I also read a lot of books and publications to stay informed. I despise ill gotten wealth because I believe in the rule of law. I believe in equality of opportunities but not in equality of outcomes. Our system is punishing the poor by not giving them a good education, and thus I am saddened by the lack of equality of opportunities. How would I correct that, well vouchers to create school competition.

For as bad as our system is, folks still need to understand that with only 4% of the world's population, we have 21% of economic output. That is an amazing statistic.


I'm not sure that anyone thinks what you posted is even remotely crazy.

Our system is punishing the poor far more than any damage being done by the trust fund babies.

Can you elaborate on that?

Dont the trust fund babies (or their parents) run the system?


Our current President is not a trust fund baby. Nor were the previous two Presidents for that matter. HW, I don't know enough about to say. Reagan certainly was not either.

We spend more on education than any other country in the world. Far more. We are turning out less educated students.

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:15 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
denisdman wrote:
I get it when people think my ideas are crazy. I am a Libertarian. I make no secret of that. I don't believe in a large role for the Federal government. I have reasons for what I believe, and hopefully my posts show that. I also read a lot of books and publications to stay informed. I despise ill gotten wealth because I believe in the rule of law. I believe in equality of opportunities but not in equality of outcomes. Our system is punishing the poor by not giving them a good education, and thus I am saddened by the lack of equality of opportunities. How would I correct that, well vouchers to create school competition.

For as bad as our system is, folks still need to understand that with only 4% of the world's population, we have 21% of economic output. That is an amazing statistic.


I'm not sure that anyone thinks what you posted is even remotely crazy.

Our system is punishing the poor far more than any damage being done by the trust fund babies.

Can you elaborate on that?

Dont the trust fund babies (or their parents) run the system?


Our current President is not a trust fund baby. Nor were the previous two Presidents for that matter. HW, I don't know enough about to say. Reagan certainly was not either.

We spend more on education than any other country in the world. Far more. We are turning out less educated students.

I think some would disagree with you on W. Bush not being a trust fund baby, but regardless, we arent a dictatorship. Big Business and their lobbies affect laws as much if not more than the sitting President


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:15 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
Our current President is not a trust fund baby. Nor were the previous two Presidents for that matter.

I know Obama wasn't, but are you seriously saying George W. Bush wasn't either?

He's the son of a former politician and oil man, who was a self made millionaire in the 1960's. The dude had money.

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:18 pm 
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Simplifying the tax code would be a terrific first step towards solving whatever our problem is. Clarity is a good thing.


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:19 pm 
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Douchebag wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Our current President is not a trust fund baby. Nor were the previous two Presidents for that matter.

I know Obama wasn't, but are you seriously saying George W. Bush wasn't either?

He's the son of a former politician and oil man, who was a self made millionaire in the 1960's. The dude had money.


The fact is, that dude made plenty of his own money. He didn't need dad's cash. Still doesn't.

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:20 pm 
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Uneducated voters have a far deeper and more costly effect on government than any oil company has.

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:21 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
The fact is, that dude made plenty of his own money. He didn't need dad's cash. Still doesn't.


The fact is, he wouldn't have gone to Yale or anywhere else without dad's connections. He wouldn't have done shit in the oil business without his dad's connections.

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:21 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
Douchebag wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Our current President is not a trust fund baby. Nor were the previous two Presidents for that matter.

I know Obama wasn't, but are you seriously saying George W. Bush wasn't either?

He's the son of a former politician and oil man, who was a self made millionaire in the 1960's. The dude had money.


The fact is, that dude made plenty of his own money. He didn't need dad's cash. Still doesn't.

You don't think Daddy got him into nice school's, and gave him some seed money and connections when he started working? Surely you don't think GWB would have had this kind of success as a regular guy, right?

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:23 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
Douchebag wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Our current President is not a trust fund baby. Nor were the previous two Presidents for that matter.

I know Obama wasn't, but are you seriously saying George W. Bush wasn't either?

He's the son of a former politician and oil man, who was a self made millionaire in the 1960's. The dude had money.


The fact is, that dude made plenty of his own money. He didn't need dad's cash. Still doesn't.

Money makes money, as Im sure you know.

You think if he grew up in Pilsen and his dad was a landscaper, he would have ended up an Oil tycoon?


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:32 pm 
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Why dont we just put The W. discussion aside. We're off the tracks (Rare for CSFMB, I know)


Let's just try to figure out who the bad guys are


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:34 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Douchebag wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Our current President is not a trust fund baby. Nor were the previous two Presidents for that matter.

I know Obama wasn't, but are you seriously saying George W. Bush wasn't either?

He's the son of a former politician and oil man, who was a self made millionaire in the 1960's. The dude had money.


The fact is, that dude made plenty of his own money. He didn't need dad's cash. Still doesn't.

Money makes money, as Im sure you know.

You think if he grew up in Pilsen and his dad was a landscaper, he would have ended up an Oil tycoon?


He never was an oil tycoon.

And there are plenty of people that grow up in Pilsen and greatly increase their economic fortunes.

The folks from Pilsen had doors opened up to them by someone, just like W did. Different doors in other industries.

And their doesn't have to be bad guys or girls.

Once you have bought into the argument that bad is stronger than good, it's all over anyway.

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:36 pm 
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I guess I don't understand why it matters where he got his money, he is not the first nor the last and I have no problem with it.

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:36 pm 
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Someone said earlier in all this that generational wealth is a problem and wealthy corporations/big wigs etc. I do not really agree with that as I do believe generally a capitalist society is much better idea than alternatives. The answer is to marginalize the bs and places where things get taken advantage of. Three of the simplest ways to create a fairer system are a completely flat tax, term limits and zero lobbying. This could happen tomorrow with no ill effect in anyone except the fat cats.

Someone mentioned earlier that we are all created equal is the way we were founded. Yes it is. Killing lobbying will make it harder for those mentioned above from buying more equality and thus influencing the game in their favor.

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:40 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
Someone said earlier in all this that generational wealth is a problem and wealthy corporations/big wigs etc. I do not really agree with that as I do believe generally a capitalist society is much better idea than alternatives. The answer is to marginalize the bs and places where things get taken advantage of. Three of the simplest ways to create a fairer system are a completely flat tax, term limits and zero lobbying. This could happen tomorrow with no ill effect in anyone except the fat cats.

Someone mentioned earlier that we are all created equal is the way we were founded. Yes it is. Killing lobbying will make it harder for those mentioned above from buying more equality and thus influencing the game in their favor.

I generally stay out of the politics threads because Im admittedly not educated enough to have an idea about wtf Im talking about but this sounds like pretty solid reasoning here.

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:44 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Let's just try to figure out who the bad guys are
The 10,978,040 in disability thats who!

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:48 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
Someone said earlier in all this that generational wealth is a problem and wealthy corporations/big wigs etc. I do not really agree with that as I do believe generally a capitalist society is much better idea than alternatives.

You can have a capitalist society without creating royalty.

And your support of corporations/big wigs is contradicted in the two paragraphs down.


pittmike wrote:
The answer is to marginalize the bs and places where things get taken advantage of. Three of the simplest ways to create a fairer system are a completely flat tax, term limits and zero lobbying. This could happen tomorrow with no ill effect in anyone except the fat cats.

Agreed. Who do you think funds the lobbies?

pittmike wrote:
Someone mentioned earlier that we are all created equal is the way we were founded. Yes it is. Killing lobbying will make it harder for those mentioned above from buying more equality and thus influencing the game in their favor.

So you ARE against Corporations making law. Got it.

See, its not that I hate corporations or dont think they should try to make as much money as possible. Go for it. Just dont buy the laws to facilitate making the money.


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:53 pm 
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chaspoppcap wrote:
Douchebag wrote:
This has little to do with Obama. Disability numbers have been increasing for 196 straight months since 1997. You're acting as if Chas' free ride started when Obama was sworn in. This has been a problem for decades, and it's only going to get worse.


I was waiting for me to be brought into this.
I am not a "free ride" I am on SSDI,it means I am basically collecting my SS early. I worked until I was no longer able to. I do what I can now because I can not stand to just sit and home and do nothing. One of the reasons I do charity work as well. I paid into the system. Sorry I got fucked up and had to use it. Trust me I would rather be working like I used to. I made good money and now not so much. The bad thing is because when I worked I made good money so now my monthly payments make me ineligible for most services because I am not considered poor enough. I get food stamps ,wanna know how much? $16 a month. When I first applied the lady that was doing my interview looked me square in the eye and told me I was the wrong color and sex to expect much help from the govt.
The disability problem/liability is SSi,it is for people who have never worked. They have not paid into the system. They get around $690 a mont hplus add in $260 in Food Stamps then add in the help they get with Utilities and housing and that is where the problems are. You should see the conditions they let people on for now. Asthma,all kinds of basic bullshit. I mean you can get on disability for being obese. That my friends is fucked up



Oh my goodness, Chas played the victim card. Who saw that coming? You brought yourself into this discussion with this exchange right here:

chaspoppcap wrote:
Douchebag wrote:
You're unemployed?

Get outta here...


Disability baby


I'll bet you wish you could take that one back, eh?

You could work a desk job, or stock the shelves of a grocery store. But, you can't earn the money that you used to, so why not feel sorry for yourself, and enjoy the free ride, right?

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:57 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
denisdman wrote:
I get it when people think my ideas are crazy. I am a Libertarian. I make no secret of that. I don't believe in a large role for the Federal government. I have reasons for what I believe, and hopefully my posts show that. I also read a lot of books and publications to stay informed. I despise ill gotten wealth because I believe in the rule of law. I believe in equality of opportunities but not in equality of outcomes. Our system is punishing the poor by not giving them a good education, and thus I am saddened by the lack of equality of opportunities. How would I correct that, well vouchers to create school competition.

For as bad as our system is, folks still need to understand that with only 4% of the world's population, we have 21% of economic output. That is an amazing statistic.


I'm not sure that anyone thinks what you posted is even remotely crazy.

Our system is punishing the poor far more than any damage being done by the trust fund babies.

Can you elaborate on that?

Dont the trust fund babies (or their parents) run the system?


Our current President is not a trust fund baby. Nor were the previous two Presidents for that matter.


W's father and grandfather were senators. He had a slightly different upbringing than Obama and Clinton.

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:58 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
Douchebag wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Our current President is not a trust fund baby. Nor were the previous two Presidents for that matter.

I know Obama wasn't, but are you seriously saying George W. Bush wasn't either?

He's the son of a former politician and oil man, who was a self made millionaire in the 1960's. The dude had money.


The fact is, that dude made plenty of his own money. He didn't need dad's cash. Still doesn't.


By using his father's connections. He didn't work on an oil rig, and then climb the corporate ladder.

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 2:00 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Let's just try to figure out who the bad guys are
The 10,978,040 in disability thats who!



Clearly there's a need to get that number of people on the rolls reduced; I'm certain there's quite a few on there without a leg to stand on.

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 2:05 pm 
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Don Tiny wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Let's just try to figure out who the bad guys are
The 10,978,040 in disability thats who!



Clearly there's a need to get that number of people on the rolls reduced; I'm certain there's quite a few on there without a leg to stand on.


I see what you did.


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 2:15 pm 
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Chus wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Douchebag wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Our current President is not a trust fund baby. Nor were the previous two Presidents for that matter.

I know Obama wasn't, but are you seriously saying George W. Bush wasn't either?

He's the son of a former politician and oil man, who was a self made millionaire in the 1960's. The dude had money.


The fact is, that dude made plenty of his own money. He didn't need dad's cash. Still doesn't.


By using his father's connections. He didn't work on an oil rig, and then climb the corporate ladder.


Virtually everyone who ever worked in any job other than for themself, got that job with the help of someone else.

Different people, but different connections.

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 2:18 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Someone said earlier in all this that generational wealth is a problem and wealthy corporations/big wigs etc. I do not really agree with that as I do believe generally a capitalist society is much better idea than alternatives.

You can have a capitalist society without creating royalty.

And your support of corporations/big wigs is contradicted in the two paragraphs down.


pittmike wrote:
The answer is to marginalize the bs and places where things get taken advantage of. Three of the simplest ways to create a fairer system are a completely flat tax, term limits and zero lobbying. This could happen tomorrow with no ill effect in anyone except the fat cats.

Agreed. Who do you think funds the lobbies?

pittmike wrote:
Someone mentioned earlier that we are all created equal is the way we were founded. Yes it is. Killing lobbying will make it harder for those mentioned above from buying more equality and thus influencing the game in their favor.

So you ARE against Corporations making law. Got it.

See, its not that I hate corporations or dont think they should try to make as much money as possible. Go for it. Just dont buy the laws to facilitate making the money.



I don't see why you broke out the first part. I did not say I wholeheartedly supported big wigs and corps. I went on further to show that. Anyway, I think I am spot on.

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 2:18 pm 
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badrogue17 wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Someone said earlier in all this that generational wealth is a problem and wealthy corporations/big wigs etc. I do not really agree with that as I do believe generally a capitalist society is much better idea than alternatives. The answer is to marginalize the bs and places where things get taken advantage of. Three of the simplest ways to create a fairer system are a completely flat tax, term limits and zero lobbying. This could happen tomorrow with no ill effect in anyone except the fat cats.

Someone mentioned earlier that we are all created equal is the way we were founded. Yes it is. Killing lobbying will make it harder for those mentioned above from buying more equality and thus influencing the game in their favor.

I generally stay out of the politics threads because Im admittedly not educated enough to have an idea about wtf Im talking about but this sounds like pretty solid reasoning here.


I sometimes get luck and have a thought. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 2:40 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
Chus wrote:
Seacrest wrote:

The fact is, that dude made plenty of his own money. He didn't need dad's cash. Still doesn't.


By using his father's connections. He didn't work on an oil rig, and then climb the corporate ladder.


Virtually everyone who ever worked in any job other than for themself, got that job with the help of someone else.

Different people, but different connections.


Of course, but Obama, Clinton, Reagan, and many others before them didn't have that type of help.

W is more like Kennedy in that regard, than Obama, Clinton, or Reagan.

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 2:56 pm 
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Recently, This American Life covered a topic that is about as controversial as one could hope: Americans on disability. It’s a subject on the tip of every politician’s tongue and lawmaker’s pen. Are people cheating the system? Why do so many people go on disability?

In listening to the podcast, I was prepared to hear stories of how people applied for disability despite being fully capable of holding a job. I was prepared to become angry. I was prepared to write my congressman.

When I started hearing the numbers associated with the small Alabama town profiled in the podcast, my expectations appeared to be justified:

-150,000 new jobs are created each year in the United States since 2009
- 250,000 people apply for disability each year during that span

“People are just getting lazy,” I thought as my 30-year old self drove to work in Corporate America. “You offer someone a handout and they will take advantage!” As fair and balanced as I try to be in my thinking, I am just as prone to jumping to conclusions as anyone else.

A doctor known for approving disability claims was profiled. During typical office visit and following a full physical exam, this doctor would ask the government-funding-hopeful a question you’ve probably never been asked by a medical professional: “What grade in school did you finish?”

The doctor’s rationale for asking this question was astounding: If the patient did not finish high school, what kind of job — in a world saturated by college graduates and younger applicants — would hire him or her? Because of this hiring struggle, the doctor would recommend his patient receive disability payments. At the very least the patient would receive some kind of money. This enraged me.

As the podcast continued and more interviews with people from the small town poured through my car stereo, a different picture began to form in my mind. One interview in particular sticks out.

An elderly woman was asked by the podcast reporter why she was on disability. The woman reported that she had suffered a legitimate back injury as the result of a car accident years before. After numerous attempts at doing various jobs that involved lifting or moving heavy objects, she applied for and was granted disability benefits.

Since the woman said she would prefer to still be working, the podcast reporter asked what job — considering her physical limitations — would be her “dream job”. The woman replied that she would love to be the “lady who sat at the Disability Office desk to weed out those people who are cheating the system.”

An honest answer, right? Not because of why you are thinking.

This woman wanted to work at the Disability Office not because of the noble cause she reported, but simply because she would be able to sit down all day. She later told the reporter that she had never heard of a job where you can sit.

This blew my mind. Was it possible that someone in the year 2013, regardless of where they lived, could never see a single job that required employees to sit during their shift? The podcast reporter asked the same question. She also reviewed the town’s current job openings:

McDonald’s cashier

McDonald’s janitor

Occupational therapist

Factory worker

Well wouldn’t you know it? Turns out that depending on where you live, there is a very good chance that the majority of available jobs require workers to be on their feet most of the day. Many of these jobs only pay minimum wage, as well.

So many Americans who are deemed “disabled” (legitimately or not) have a choice that opened my eyes to a whole different reality:

Work a minimum-wage job and make approximately $15,000 a year (no benefits)
Go on disability and receive $13,000 a year from the government (including full health insurance)

Is this really even a choice?


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 2:56 pm 
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Chus wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Chus wrote:
Seacrest wrote:

The fact is, that dude made plenty of his own money. He didn't need dad's cash. Still doesn't.


By using his father's connections. He didn't work on an oil rig, and then climb the corporate ladder.


Virtually everyone who ever worked in any job other than for themself, got that job with the help of someone else.

Different people, but different connections.


Of course, but Obama, Clinton, Reagan, and many others before them didn't have that type of help.

W is more like Kennedy in that regard, than Obama, Clinton, or Reagan.


Agreed.

But he did use the connections to make his money. he was not handed a trust fund at 21 and told "go have some fun."

I've met a couple of folks with trust funds. Never resented them. Quite the opposite actually.

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 2:59 pm 
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Ugueth Will Shiv You wrote:
Recently, This American Life covered a topic that is about as controversial as one could hope: Americans on disability. It’s a subject on the tip of every politician’s tongue and lawmaker’s pen. Are people cheating the system? Why do so many people go on disability?

In listening to the podcast, I was prepared to hear stories of how people applied for disability despite being fully capable of holding a job. I was prepared to become angry. I was prepared to write my congressman.

When I started hearing the numbers associated with the small Alabama town profiled in the podcast, my expectations appeared to be justified:

-150,000 new jobs are created each year in the United States since 2009
- 250,000 people apply for disability each year during that span

“People are just getting lazy,” I thought as my 30-year old self drove to work in Corporate America. “You offer someone a handout and they will take advantage!” As fair and balanced as I try to be in my thinking, I am just as prone to jumping to conclusions as anyone else.

A doctor known for approving disability claims was profiled. During typical office visit and following a full physical exam, this doctor would ask the government-funding-hopeful a question you’ve probably never been asked by a medical professional: “What grade in school did you finish?”

The doctor’s rationale for asking this question was astounding: If the patient did not finish high school, what kind of job — in a world saturated by college graduates and younger applicants — would hire him or her? Because of this hiring struggle, the doctor would recommend his patient receive disability payments. At the very least the patient would receive some kind of money. This enraged me.

As the podcast continued and more interviews with people from the small town poured through my car stereo, a different picture began to form in my mind. One interview in particular sticks out.

An elderly woman was asked by the podcast reporter why she was on disability. The woman reported that she had suffered a legitimate back injury as the result of a car accident years before. After numerous attempts at doing various jobs that involved lifting or moving heavy objects, she applied for and was granted disability benefits.

Since the woman said she would prefer to still be working, the podcast reporter asked what job — considering her physical limitations — would be her “dream job”. The woman replied that she would love to be the “lady who sat at the Disability Office desk to weed out those people who are cheating the system.”

An honest answer, right? Not because of why you are thinking.

This woman wanted to work at the Disability Office not because of the noble cause she reported, but simply because she would be able to sit down all day. She later told the reporter that she had never heard of a job where you can sit.

This blew my mind. Was it possible that someone in the year 2013, regardless of where they lived, could never see a single job that required employees to sit during their shift? The podcast reporter asked the same question. She also reviewed the town’s current job openings:

McDonald’s cashier

McDonald’s janitor

Occupational therapist

Factory worker

Well wouldn’t you know it? Turns out that depending on where you live, there is a very good chance that the majority of available jobs require workers to be on their feet most of the day. Many of these jobs only pay minimum wage, as well.

So many Americans who are deemed “disabled” (legitimately or not) have a choice that opened my eyes to a whole different reality:

Work a minimum-wage job and make approximately $15,000 a year (no benefits)
Go on disability and receive $13,000 a year from the government (including full health insurance)

Is this really even a choice?


Here is a link to the NPR report, or something that expounds upon the interview.


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 3:13 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
Uneducated voters have a far deeper and more costly effect on government than any oil company has.
The influence of money on government is a far bigger problem than uneducated voters. (to a very large extent) Elections are decided by it. Bills are written, influenced, passed or killed by it. Politicians are corrupted by it. I suppose you could make the argument that an educated voter would lessen the influence of money but I think it goes far deeper than that.

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