That's fine and I don't necessarily disagree with you. But if we're granting such a thing, we have to consider that perhaps Michael Jordan or Bill Russell was not the "greatest of all time" and maybe Charles Barkley or Karl Malone was.

It seems to me that in the NBA, "rings" matter when judging a player and teams are assigned to players. For example, there are Kobe's teams and Shaq's teams. Robert Horry doesn't have any teams. He's just a guy who played on teams. This isn't done in the other sports. Football fans are smart enough to know Gale Sayers was great even though he never won a championship. Baseball fans are smart enough to know that Ted Williams was great even though he never won. It's only NBA fans (and players) who start chirping about "rings". You and I may disagree with it, but the conventional wisdom is that great NBA players have to win championships or they aren't so great.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

from what i've seen he is being a bit too passive once he breaks down the defense while driving... he is looking to pass first, when I think he'd be better served putting up layups or getting foul calls and going to the line

I wonder why Dan likes having Ethan "efficiency" "narrative" Skolnik on. Hmmm

I absolutely HATE Frank from Oak Park's manner of speech.....

_________________
GOB: "My God, what is this feeling?"
Michael: "Could it be love?"
GOB: "I know what an erection feels like, Michael. No, it's the opposite. It's... it's like my heart is getting hard."

I think it may be because it's easier for a great individual talent to take his team to the playoffs/finals in basketball than it is in baseball or football. You can have a five tool CF batting cleanup, but his stellar numbers aren't going to matter if your pitching sucks, or if he's got bums in front and behind him in the lineup. The interdependency of team sports is shrunk in basketball, where' it's just five on five, and therefore when one man can make a difference between first place and mediocrity.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

The Pacers say that George is 6'10" now.

_________________
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Can you find me an NBA fan who says that Elgin Baylor, Charles Barkley, and/or Karl Malone were not great players?

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

But apparently it isn't so easy for LeBron. Or perhaps it's just that LeBron isn't so great?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

What do the Heat say?

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Can you find me one that argues that they are the greatest?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

For a long time I would have told you Malone was the best PF I ever saw with Worthy second. I'm 46 for era perspective.

_________________
Elections have consequences.

But you and I and Favre Fan all know that if I started a thread saying Charles Barkley: Greatest of All Time there would be an avalanche of posts saying he never won shit.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

LeBron is very good on blocking shots from behind and playing passing lanes to get steals. He's probably one of the best all time at chasing down a fast break and blocking a shot from behind. The reason why he has success against shorter guards in the half court is because Miami traps the pick and roll. Once you trap the guard in a corner with two taller players, one of them being Lebron, no one is open and the guard can't pass the ball.

LeBron has guarded taller players, but David West has been killing him in this series. If you believe in LeBron's mythic defensive prowess you probably also believe that such prowess keeps him from ever committing a foul. LeBron is not necessarily a shut down defender. He can be beat on the offensive end by players with the right set of skills, specifically fast guys who can shoot or big physical guys who can back him down and score over him.

_________________
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Well, he technically has led three teams to the Finals, and is on the verge of a fourth Finals appearance. He's also been in the playoffs for something like seven or eight consecutive years. 1 for 3 in the Finals is not spectacular, but him being the focal point of three Finals teams, and possibly four, is more than enough evidence of greatness. Of course he wouldn't need those appearances anyway, since as FF mentioned the excellence of players with no rings like Malone and Barkley is well established in NBA circles. But rings for star players certainly put them in a more exclusive club of NBA greatness.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

If the Heat lose tonight or in the Finals it's all LeBron's fault. He could have joined the Bulls and be headed for a 3-peat right now.

_________________
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

True.

_________________
Elections have consequences.

Exactly. And without rings on a bunch of fingers, the two dopes that are on 670 from 1 to 6 each day can devote their entire lives to evangelizing how LeBron is the GREATEST and nobody will accept it.*



*Except possibly Maddux Boy, Tim Baffoe and other guys on bernstein's jock.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

No. But that's a pretty faulty counterargument. Do you think Magic Johnson is better than Chuck just because he has five rings? Of course not. And look at a guy like Kevin Mchale. He's easily a deserving HOFer, an undeniably great player who was on some great teams and won a few rings. I don't know anybody, except maybe you here in your next response to me, who would rank him higher than Malone or Barkley. Rings I think are used more as a tie-breaker or just a way to separate the great from the legendary when their stats and the eye test tell you that you're looking at remarkably similar players, like Jordan and LeBron for example. I don't think they ultimately define the player. Obviously some fans, players, and pundits weigh it differently than others.

Basically, it's a heavy, inescapable footnote on a career. Nobody is ever gonna say Elgin Baylor wasn't great(unless they are stupid); they will say Elgin was a great player who never won a ring.


On a side note, I do think its kinda funny/interesting that you mention that this particular way of viewing sports may be unique to the NBA fan, when at the same time you can't get RPB to understand that 2nd place and 14th place are not equivalent when talking about the Sox and Cubs.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Yes, I agree the discussion about "the greatest" can quickly get silly. The right factors have to be in place. I mean if Krause doesn't surround MJ with the players he did, specifically acquiring Pippen and Grant on the same day in the '80s, then I'm not sure if the Bulls become a dynasty in the early '90s. And if they don't, is MJ still the greatest ever?

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

I think it's unfair, but McHale is in the same boat as Scottie in that he doesn't have any teams "of his own".

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

That's exactly it. He's certainly viewed differently. Even if he personally had exactly the same numbers.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Do you think a sportswriter from the #3 SoFla newspaper finds it odd that he's a go-to guest for a Chicago sports radio show? Like, imagine if every time someone on WFAN had to talk hockey, they called Barry Rozner.

_________________

But that's not unfair at all. If two guys average 30-7-7 and 60 wins a year for their career, but one is known to freeze up when the pressure is at its highest, whereas the other is at his best during those same moments, you're taking the guy who comes through every time.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

This is why no matter how these two clowns spin it I'll take Mike as GOAT every time and be quite comfy in my stance. Moreover, you can specimen talk and defend all 5 position shit till you are blue in the face and I am taking Kobe on my team draft before Lebron every time.

_________________
Elections have consequences.

Me too, just don't tell Nas. I like that he thinks I'm a Kobe hater.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Your secret is safe

_________________
Elections have consequences.

As for Kobe, I forgot that he's 3/4 in the Finals as Shaq's guy, and 2/3 when he was the leading guy. When comparing him to MJ in terms of rings, does anyone make the point that he won 2 as a leading guy, and 3 as Shaq's right hand man, while MJ won 6 as a leading man? I sure do. Is that a valid point?

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Sure its valid to me. I was saying that his killer instinct and finishing are further up my criteria for picking him on my team before Lebron.

_________________
Elections have consequences.

No i totally agree with your earlier point about Kobe over LBJ. I was just asking a separate question about Kobe vs MJ. I'd pick LBJ over Kobe in a video game though.. You could do so much damage with a 6'8 beast.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

To me it's all about judging people after their careers are over and what they did and not say. Did Ted Williams...Elgin...MJ....Gale....Kareem...Oscar...ever do the Lebron hold the 6 fingers up to indicate how many rings he would get????? Well if he gets 1 or 2 or 3 he under achieved. Oh he's great.... smart no

_________________
I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.