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 Post subject: Re: Dennis Rodman
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:11 am 
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The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
RFDC wrote:
I am a little surprised to see Rodman say the Heat had more talent.

Jordan Pippen Rodman Harper Kukoc

Lebron Bosh Wade Allen Birdman

I think the Bulls win on that one too


Yeah, I think the era from when Magic and Bird came into the league up until around the last Bulls championship was a golden age. But I think the 60s when you had Russell and Wilt and Bellamy and Baylor and Robertson, etc. was a golden age too. So it really doesn't have anything to do with athletes getting better in general, right?

Who or what are you responding to? Bernstein doesn't post here.


I think he does post here...

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 Post subject: Re: Dennis Rodman
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:58 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I would suggest that part of the reason that there are no great centers is that guys that should be the great centers are fucking around dribbling the ball.


Yup. I see it the same way. He's not a center, but Antoine Walker could be an example of someone who should have had a better back to the basket game than he actually did. He shot an unreasonable amount of threes for far too long during his career.

Even if they're not dribbling the ball in college and high school, I imagine bigs today are not all that intrigued with something like footwork when their shorter peers are crossing each other over and throwing no look alley oops. It took years before Shaq developed a skill, and Howard's development has also been slow. A guy like Eddy Curry never developed anything, despite his obvious soft touch around the rim. I think what separated guys like Ewing, Robinson, and Olajuwon from everyone else was the effort they put into developing actual skills that were appropriate for men their size. Nowadays you have a bunch of tall guys who can jump high and throw down dunks, but rare is the big with actual skills.

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Last edited by veganfan21 on Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dennis Rodman
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:03 am 
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W_Z wrote:
these debates always remind me of "who would win in a battle? wolverine or batman?"


Not sure about Wolverine, but here's some strong evidence to point to the superiority of Superman over Batman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FywMOuMqNuI

As a Batman fan, I hate to acknowledge the solid logic underlying the video, which actually helps it overcome its obvious anti-Batman bias.

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 Post subject: Re: Dennis Rodman
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:44 am 
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I think alot of it comes down to rules and the application of them. Why did the centers of the 50's have such touch around the rim? Solid rims and a rule against dunking, right. What guy who grew up with a plywood backboard/solid rim/one new net per decade hasn't torn the shit out of his wrist trying to dunk on a solid rim? The current game owes it's glorious dunk highlights to Darrel Dawkins. At one time, even a minor post-score celebration was a T and the ball for the other team.

Why were the 90's teams so much more physical- they were allowed to hand check, etc. Why didn't Wilt show off his 30 foot range? no three point bonus for shooting out there. Sorry if I just stated the obvious. I recognize improvements in the athletes. I see it even more watching my boys playing high school ball- man, My team was no where near that quick, but we could never have done as much pushing/contact as these kids get away with now.


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 Post subject: Re: Dennis Rodman
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:31 am 
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The thing is, when eras and players are compared, most people have an agenda. Rodman certainly does. His story rings like grandpa talking about walking eight miles through snow to a one-room schoolhouse. Even if he may be right to some degree.

I think we should be having these discussions to come to reasonable conclusions, not just to pound someone over the head that Jordan is the best that ever was, the best that ever will be, end of story, shut the fuck up, if you don't agree, you're a fucking idiot.

Circumstances help create the player. Jordan was great. But part of the way he is remembered is due to circumstances- the way the game exploded (due in no small part to Jordan himself, true.), the marketing power of Nike, and the fact that he played on so many winners (He wasn't a one-man team. Scottie is the greatest complimentary player ever in any sport. Phil was a great coach for great players. And Krause always found other guys that fit perfectly.) And I'll say when I watched Jordan (and Magic) I knew I was watching something special. I don't feel that way when I watch LeBron. But I'll also say I'm not sure how much that has to do with the players and how much it has to do with me.

Take a guy like Truck Robinson. He's never even mentioned. I wouldn't call him a great player. But he was damn good. I have no doubt he was superior to Chris Bosh, who might make the Hall of Fame. Ridiculous. I guarantee you one thing. If Truck Robinson had come in the wake of Bird and Magic rather than before them, he is remembered much differently and considered a greater player than he currently is.

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 Post subject: Re: Dennis Rodman
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:35 am 
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veganfan21 wrote:
W_Z wrote:
these debates always remind me of "who would win in a battle? wolverine or batman?"


Not sure about Wolverine, but here's some strong evidence to point to the superiority of Superman over Batman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FywMOuMqNuI

As a Batman fan, I hate to acknowledge the solid logic underlying the video, which actually helps it overcome its obvious anti-Batman bias.


yes, well, superman was an actual superhero so i would put the advantage to superman. :)

take away batman's utility belt and he's just a guy in tights.


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 Post subject: Re: Dennis Rodman
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:26 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Circumstances help create the player. Jordan was great. But part of the way he is remembered is due to circumstances- the way the game exploded (due in no small part to Jordan himself, true.), the marketing power of Nike, and the fact that he played on so many winners (He wasn't a one-man team. Scottie is the greatest complimentary player ever in any sport. Phil was a great coach for great players. And Krause always found other guys that fit perfectly.)


I'd mostly agree here. This is not to diminish Jordan's accomplishments, but there's no questioning the impact more advanced forms of television/marketing and globalization has had in the evolution of the way he's recalled and remembered. I made a similar argument to a friend about Michael Jackson, whose worldwide fame, as it exploded in the 1980s and 1990s, is as much as a product of the increased availability of audio tapes, CDs, MTV, etc., as it is a product of his artistic ability.

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 Post subject: Re: Dennis Rodman
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:30 am 
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W_Z wrote:

yes, well, superman was an actual superhero so i would put the advantage to superman. :)

take away batman's utility belt and he's just a guy in tights.


I always thought a hero like Superman was too easy to construct. I'm not sure what's so creative about imagining a guy who is invincible and can do pretty much anything. It seems like other heroes have potential to be philosophically deeper and more complex than a guy who can fly around at supersonic speed and catch bullets, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Dennis Rodman
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:22 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
W_Z wrote:

yes, well, superman was an actual superhero so i would put the advantage to superman. :)

take away batman's utility belt and he's just a guy in tights.


I always thought a hero like Superman was too easy to construct. I'm not sure what's so creative about imagining a guy who is invincible and can do pretty much anything. It seems like other heroes have potential to be philosophically deeper and more complex than a guy who can fly around at supersonic speed and catch bullets, etc.


Green Lantern and Green Arrow are better heroes than Superman.

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 Post subject: Re: Dennis Rodman
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:25 pm 
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Forget Superman vs. Batman, how about Superman vs Goku?


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 Post subject: Re: Dennis Rodman
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:34 pm 
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Spectreman vs. Ultraman

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 Post subject: Re: Dennis Rodman
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:06 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I would suggest that part of the reason that there are no great centers is that guys that should be the great centers are fucking around dribbling the ball.


Yup. I see it the same way. He's not a center, but Antoine Walker could be an example of someone who should have had a better back to the basket game than he actually did. He shot an unreasonable amount of threes for far too long during his career.

Even if they're not dribbling the ball in college and high school, I imagine bigs today are not all that intrigued with something like footwork when their shorter peers are crossing each other over and throwing no look alley oops. It took years before Shaq developed a skill, and Howard's development has also been slow. A guy like Eddy Curry never developed anything, despite his obvious soft touch around the rim. I think what separated guys like Ewing, Robinson, and Olajuwon from everyone else was the effort they put into developing actual skills that were appropriate for men their size. Nowadays you have a bunch of tall guys who can jump high and throw down dunks, but rare is the big with actual skills.


Don't forgot the guys who had all skills and ZERO athleticism.. I'm looking at you, McHale. Everytime you got it on the baseline, it seemed like it was a dropstep-off glass bucket, or on the charity stripe for two...

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 Post subject: Re: Dennis Rodman
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:27 pm 
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Apologist wrote:

Don't forgot the guys who had all skills and ZERO athleticism.. I'm looking at you, McHale. Everytime you got it on the baseline, it seemed like it was a dropstep-off glass bucket, or on the charity stripe for two...


Right, good point. All I'm trying to say is that i think the guys of earlier eras and today's players are physically capable of the same types of athletic feats. Those guys may have been performing the same highly flying stunts we see today had they been brought up in the same type of basketball culture that dominates today.

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 Post subject: Re: Dennis Rodman
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 3:07 pm 
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Terry's Peeps wrote:
Spectreman vs. Ultraman

The Nihon-Jin sure love their giant monsters/robots.


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 Post subject: Re: Dennis Rodman
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:33 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
W_Z wrote:

yes, well, superman was an actual superhero so i would put the advantage to superman. :)

take away batman's utility belt and he's just a guy in tights.


I always thought a hero like Superman was too easy to construct. I'm not sure what's so creative about imagining a guy who is invincible and can do pretty much anything. It seems like other heroes have potential to be philosophically deeper and more complex than a guy who can fly around at supersonic speed and catch bullets, etc.


i think you missed the point of what superman represented. or, you wanted to think of superman as something else.


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