Had a bunch of thoughts. Meh...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKVujOctza4
Hoping that someday...A Change is Gonna Come
awesome cover

This is nothing more than the media and police union over hyping an issue. I posted the numbers before to prove it. Violent crime and murders are down dramatically than what they were in 2000 and in the 90's. No one was calling for the National Guard then. Right now there are a little more than 1 person being murdered everyday. Back then it was more than 2 and very close to 3.

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The number that would be interesting is to compare how many people were shot. Pretty sure you could factor in a percentage of past killings going down because facilities to save gunshot victims (response time, treatment etc.) could have improved. Don't believe they have the "shot" historic numbers. Flip side I guess could be that gun technology is better so a shooter should technically be able to kill more efficiently. Granted spraying bullets from a automatic pistol in a moving car probably negates the whole efficiency concept. Interesting analysis for someone if they have the numbers.

I would be a little less distressed if the shooters could hit a target once in awhile instead of little kids and old people. A lot of so called gangbangers are just young scared kids afraid to say no when the gangs come calling. The cops should be worried about getting to the elder gangbangers first.

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favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

Medical technology hasn't advanced in the last 13 to 20 years where we should see a 50% reduction in murders. The same is true for violent crimes. They're way down too. Everyone talks as if this is the worst it has ever been but all the stats say differently.

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Actually going after the leaders causes more problems. Once you remove the leaders it becomes every man for himself. As is the case with 3rd world leaders that we hate sometimes it is best not to remove them because some order is better than none.

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This isn't the first article I saw discussing the point, but what I quickly found. I find it hard to imagine Chicago area hospitals haven't benefited from what has been learned in war. If the Chicago shooting data had existed it would have been worth a look.

As an aside, people shot can be significantly altered human beings, but didn't die. Just because now we are better at keeping them alive doesn't mean they are "all better now". Troops wounded get far better care than any regular citizen shot. Tracking the number shot is still a better true measurement of the impact to a society. .02

Medical advances spurred by wars in Iraq and Afghanistan
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/wars-in-iraq-and-afghanistan-led-to-medical-advances

...As the 10th anniversary of the start of the Iraq war approaches and American troops continue withdrawing from Afghanistan, military and civilian medical experts are taking stock of what the troops' shared sacrifice has meant in advancing the medical care of the wounded -- in uniform and out.

The progress is evident in the remarkable survival statistic. In Vietnam and even the Persian Gulf War 20 years ago, just 76 percent of the wounded lived.

Insights gained from keeping severely wounded troops alive already are being put to work in civilian emergency departments and ambulances nationwide.

Many trauma experts believe lessons from military medicine in the past decade are a major reason why more civilians are surviving gunshot injuries in the U.S., even as the total number of shootings has been increasing, according to figures kept by the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The casualties of Iraq and Afghanistan "are 50,000 case studies of traumatic amputations and gunshot wounds and brain injuries, all tracked and managed in the same military system," said Ken Koyle, former commander of an Army medical evacuation unit in Iraq and a military historian who now works at the National Library of Medicine.

"That drives very rapid changes in the way casualties are treated on the battlefield, and influences the way injuries are treated in the civilian world."...

Doesn't violent crime include shootings? That's also down by 50%.

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the numbers are all cooked

This is probably closer to the truth.

Not sure if you are trying to change the point of debate. If so, that is fine and might be relative, but it is not in terms of the initial post or what we were just discussing.

I'm not. I'm say murders and violent crime is down 50% from what is was 13 to 20 years ago. If violent crime includes shootings then that means those are down as well. My point has been things are WAY better now but the media and the police unions would have us believe just the opposite.

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When did the city start shipping out all of the "The Ruffians" to the suburbs?

You also said that there was no way we should expect a significant drop in the death rate from shootings, and I believe that we could. I believe that if we compared shootings, for which I don't believe a historic stat exists, you would have a more acceptable level of comparison.

1) It could be argued that a stronger police presence in the hot areas has led to a decrease in other types of violent crime. 2) It could also be argued that a city doesn't believe that looking at violent crime stats is a viable number. I am not a conspiracy theorist by trade, but I do believe that those numbers in particular are very easy to manipulate and that at times they have been.

Either way, does Nas really want to be the guy that stands up and says to his community "it was twice as bad before. Bunch of media hype. What are you complaining about?"

less rock + roe-v-wade = lower violent crime rate

Well I'm saying it on CSFMB and I've said it to others when I've heard "It's never been this bad" and similar things. I'm not going to tell someone that has lost a loved one the same thing. By the numbers my statement is correct. You believe that advancements in technology is the reason for the 50% drop in the number of murders. There is no way I can prove you wrong but I believe that is unlikely to be true. I don't know why they've gone down. Essentially my point is if we didn't need the National Guard or need to take other extreme measures when 1000 people were being murdered then we definitely don't them when 450 are being murdered. People believe we do because they're reporting EVERY murder in the city now.

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Well Regan didn't address crack until it was way too late, it was an epidemic by then. The murders are down but still way too high. Demolition on hundreds of vacant buildings helped curb alot of crime. When there is as much crime as say a Toronto n then I will say things.are good.

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That's one way to view it. Some believe tearing down the projects and giving them vouchers to live just about anywhere is the reason for a lot of the crime. I just see it different than most. Murders are down 50% over the past 13 years even though the unemployment rate is up by 50% (I'm guessing). How much lower would the number of murders be if the unemployment rate was lower?

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So we are clear, I didn't say I believed it would cause a 50% drop in murders. I believe people shot is a more effective way to determine gun crime in an area. I also believe it would be an interesting study to compare over time. Can't do it. Your Guard stance is the same as mine. I haven't seen the census numbers, but that could be one reason the numbers are lower, just fewer people.

YES! YES! YES!

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I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out. - Bill Hicks

Let's do it for Johnny!

Understood.

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I'm not sure you can simply look at gross numbers.... don't you have to look at murders per capita? With more people living in the city, the shootings per capita may have actually decreased.

? I thought the current population was very close to that of the 90s.

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What has dramatically advanced in the past two decades is the development of our nascent prison state. The prison population has exploded since the Reagan years and continues to rise. Additionally, police surveillance in "dangerous" areas has also been massively expanded, in many cases through federal funding. Thus the character of our society has been subtly but radically redefined--we have chosen authoritarian, discriminatory measures to superficially address social problems without actually solving them. By doing so, we have created new problems (massive expenditures that starve public budgets in other areas, a permanently marginalized class of young people, a crisis of legitimacy in our legal system and broader government, etc) that will manifest themselves in very ugly ways over the long term.

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Very true. Once again TM bringin' it.

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I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out. - Bill Hicks

Let's do it for Johnny!

Only 219 people have been murdered in Chicago this year. I know if you lost a loved one that is 1 too many and we all would love for that number to be 0. That being said we are on pace to have the fewest murders in Chicago since 1965. Just proves that the police union and the media are the ones pushing this "worst ever" story.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Chicago

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