39-59 Did you ever expect them to be this bad? I expected them to finish in 3rd behind the Tigers and Indians, but not in last place and 20 games under .500 on the 25th of July. I predicted Peavy would get hurt and spend a month or more on the DL, that was easy enough, the guy had spent over a month on the DL in 5 of the last 6 seasons. I predicted Sale would not be as good as the strain of too many innings (120 additional over the season before) would have diminished his level of performance (which should be MORE of a problem in the next 2 months) and I predicted that Flowers would be a big flop, as he had struck out in 41% of his at bats the season before. Thinking he would be a good replacement for A.J. was foolish. But 20 games under?? Didn't think it would be this bad.

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Go Cubs!!!!

In a short answer no. I expect this to be a team floating around 500 all year.

I do disagree with your assessment of Chris Sale. Wins and losses are not a good measure of a pitcher's success.
His WHIP is lower (1.023), His K's are up (10/9IP), ERA is a bit lower than last year. K/BB is up from last year. His 2013 is better than 2012.

Don't worry, Steve. The White Sox will refill the canteen in 2014!

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Bears.

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@audioidkid

No. The "when" matters. He hasn't been as effective in his games this season. It's not all just bad luck. It's game management too. Like thinking you should pitch to Cabrera.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

And away we go...

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Again, Frank, and I'm not sure why this is so tough for you to grasp, there's a world of difference between saying a guy is pitching better than his record and saying he's having a good year. There's no way Sale has been better this season than last, although you might think so if you simply looked at his WHIP and some other ancillary statistics.

There's more to being a starting pitcher than "dominating" hitters. You would think with the whole "I wanted to pitch to Cabrera" thing would illustrate that. It's about having a plan and executing it. Sale has been better than last year in many situations this season, but too many times in key moments he has been worse and that is reflected in his W/L record.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I never said or indicated otherwise.

He was an All Star last year and this year, and both times he deserved it. You have to be having a good year to make the All Star team when you are voted in by the players or picked by the manager. He's having a good year. Thats all there is to it.

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Vince said it and I disagree. And I disagree with you in that I don't think he's having a particularly good year at all. It's really just philosophical. I was at that game Peavy won last Saturday. I guess you would say he had pitched better if he had lost 3-2. I just disagree with that thinking.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Its ok that you are wrong, Orr. Its cool.

refill the canteen in 2014!!!!!

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Over time I've come to better appreciate your position, but I think one hangup that some of us may have, I know I do, is that in this rationale you're compelled to label bailout wins as good games.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

What do you mean by "bailout" wins? When a guy is taken out after giving up the lead and his teams scores the next half inning to get it back? Sure, that happens. Sometimes he'll leave with the lead and the pen will blow the game for him too. In the first case, he gets the win. In the second he gets a no decision.

To me, "game management" is illustrated perfectly by Brian McCann's grand slam at-bat against "Losing Pitcher" John Danks with two out last week. When you look at the numbers and fold them into his numbers for the entire season, it looks like he pitched a good game. I get tired of hearing "he pitched good enough to win". No, he didn't. If he had, he would have. Pitching good enough to win means allowing one less than the opposing pitcher(s). That's a starter's job. Nothing else.

But back to that McCann at-bat. That was the whole ballgame. All the "domination" of guys in different innings before and after that are immaterial. Here's the ballgame. Forget run support. This is Danks vs. McCann. And Danks managed poorly. He showed the guy all his pitches and finally put one where he could take it deep. It wasn't even a terrible pitch. Just not good enough. Danks wasn't good enough to put him away. But that's not true. We know Danks is good enough to put him away. He's showed us that by producing ancillary numbers that are more than respectable. What he isn't good at is managing a game. Pitching with a plan.

I've seen the majority of Mark Buehrle's starts over the years. He has a curveball, but he rarely throws it. It's a decent curveball and he can locate it fairly well. It's not something like what Kershaw throws, but it's okay. If he threw it a whole lot it probably wouldn't be. Fangraphs gives us the luxury of seeing a complete breakdown of pitch types. I've seen a game where Buehrle was in trouble late. He had thrown a lot of pitches and he got into a situation similar to the one Danks had with McCann the other night. Here's the ballgame. This batter. This pitch. Buehrle hadn't thrown a curveball all night. But he had two strikes on that hitter and the guy looked like he could go all night just fouling him off like Appling until he got one he could drive. This is the ballgame. Buehrle dropped that curve right over and walked off the mound. The batters knees buckled. That's game management. That's pitching. And that's what gets you a high winning percentage.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

During a long season, the manager has less impact per game. Maybe he can find one or two guys he can take under his wing and improve, but thats not why a manager is there.

A playoff run, game, Ws, it does make a difference. Better be thinking 3 steps ahead, at least. Some, like Bevington were 2 steps behind

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"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." Banky
“Been that way since one monkey looked at the sun and told the other monkey ‘He said for you to give me your fuckin’ share.’”

Like JORR & Frank go back and forth with the good pitching stuff (I agree with Frank),one thing that sticks in my crawl is the fallacy of a manager not making a difference in EVERY game. That is total bullshit. When some hacker swings at a 3-1 pitch and hits into a double play with 1st and 2nd occupied,the manager could have asked for a bunt or given the red light (don't swing) from the dugout. A manager controls everything,from benching the WRONG guy on a particular day to leaving in a starter too long or removing too early.

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favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

I see what you're saying, but I think " I get tired of hearing "he pitched good enough to win". No, he didn't. If he had, he would have. Pitching good enough to win means allowing one less than the opposing pitcher(s). That's a starter's job. Nothing else. " sort of puts equal responsibility on the pitcher's offense to create the one run differential against the opposing pitcher(s) of which you speak Would you agree? Nothing you said is incorrect, but I think you're placing a disproportionate amount of responsibility on the pitcher.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

And I understand what you're saying, but my view would be that the offensive you speak of is just numbers generated off the opposing pitchers(s) who are running their own "game management" within the context of the same game. And yeah, I also understand that all offenses aren't equal. But within the space of a single game with the better offense facing a pitcher who is supposed to be great (Chris Sale, for example) and Sale's offense facing a pitcher who is supposed to be ordinary (Erik Bedard, Jarrod Parker, etc.) the difference between the two offenses is razor thin at best.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Except your arguments are weak. WHIP was the be all end all but the guy you said was the best starter ever isn't even in the top 200 in that category. You certainly didn't come up with the idea that "winning percentage is a bad stat" on your own. You're just parroting some shit you read.

My view of Chris Sale is right on. He's a pitcher with dominating stuff having a not so great season. Ancillary stats are just that- ancillary. The object of the game is not to produce the lowest WHIP. And anyway, it's pretty unscientific to compare the WHIP of pitchers who are facing hitters with different plate umps and hitter's backgrounds.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

You know exactly what you said. Do you really want me to find it? You're going to look stupid when I juxtapose it against your insistence that WHIP is the primary tool for judging pitchers. Why don't you just stop now. You don't know enough to argue this with me.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

JORR is dominating the dojo once again.

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Regardless of the argument, I love a good situational baseball story from the pitcher's perspective

Okay, you said he was in the Top Ten of all-time and then posted a bunch of links, some suggesting her was the greatest ever.




Is WHIP really "closely related to a pitcher's overall skill"? Is Ryan's 274th ranked WHIP just an anomaly that doesn't prevent him from being in the Top Ten of all-time? Is Rudy May's skill the equivalent of Ryan's?

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Listen here, jerkwad, and stop talking in circles. Is WHIP closely related to a pitcher's overall skill? If it is, you're telling me Rudy May and Nolan Ryan are equal. Just back out of the thread slowly before you look any dumber.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

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He did the same a few different times with me during the whole Chris Sale debate last week.

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I guess both you dipshits misquoted yourselves in your own posts.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Nope. Try again, old timer.

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Appropriate you show a guy getting 2 strikeouts while giving up 5 runs. Maybe the Mets win 6-5 and the guy pitches a good game according to Orr.

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