Are there any other exceptions? Cuntface.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

That seems somewhat contradictory. If the fundamental objective is to pitch better than the opponent, winning percentage will illustrate how often that was accomplished.

I certainly don't believe Chris Sale is going to post a sub-3.00 ERA for his career with a losing record. In fact, I don't think such a thing has ever occurred.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

By any objective measure, Chris Sale has performed great this year.

_________________

If you're going to be truly objective, why are you refusing to consider the fact that more often than not another pitcher in the same games he has pitched has performed better?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Because it completely wrong?

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

If it's wrong, how does he have a losing record? Is the goal to produce a better WHIP or to allow less runs than the opponent?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

So you can admit this is one of those fluky years where a pitcher performs great despite having a losing record.

_________________

I go with the flow, bro. If people want to discuss, I'll discuss. If they want to call names, I'll come up with some good ones.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

You realize there's more to a baseball game than a pitcher?

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Because that has no bearing on how Chris Sale pitched.

The opposing pitcher being better does not negate the quality of Sale's game.

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Because those pitchers are facing different offenses and the difference is vast

I think we may have a semantic issue here. I don't think a pitcher can perform "great" while producing a losing record. I think if you say Patrick Corbin "deserved to win", you're saying Tyson Ross "deserved to lose". Sale's overall performance is excellent. I'm not arguing that. He's just making the one mistake here or there that causes him to lose a game. It certainly doesn't help that his team has a lousy offense. But he is aware of that. It's no mystery. He's at a .18 run disadvantage vs. Kansas City. He has to pitch over that. I don't think that's too much to ask of a big stud ace, do you? If it is, maybe he isn't the big stud ace you thought he was. I'll ask this, would you rather have the Royals offense vs. Sale or the Sox offense vs. Davis? The linemakers thought it was -160 Sale.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Yeah, there's the other pitcher.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Yes, and maybe more contributors?

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

That's wrong. WRONG. The difference is not vast in the VAST majority of cases. Last night it was .18 runs. That's tiny. Negligible. Nothing. A team cannot score a fraction of a run.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

They're all facing one guy or the other.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Sale's effort only exists within the context of the game he and the other guy actually pitched. It's not a simulation.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

So, we eliminate the defense, the offense of the pitcher, the quality of the bullpen, the other variables way outside the control of the pitcher?
Interesting. I don't get it but ok.
To accurately compare pitchers, and to determine quality, I would find the stats in this order of increasing value:

WHIP
K/9
BB/9
H/9
W/L

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

That's silly.

There is no way you believe Sale pitched a bad game because he lost 1-0.

_________________

Incorrect. His efforts are completely independant of the game the other guy pitched.
not related.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Sure, all those things come into play. But the margins here are razor thin. The worst team wins 60 games. The worst leftfielder makes most of the plays. Of course there isn't a perfect statistic that we can wrap around a guy with a bow. Every WHIP is created vs. different batters on different days in different parks with different hitter's backgrounds and different plate umpires.

For a starter, I want to see his W/L percentage first. For a reliever I want to see his WHIP and K/9.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I guess all I can say is that I disagree completely.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

I think you are incorrect, but we have no scientific way to prove it either way.

If that's really the case though, they should just let teams pick when they want to use the pitcher's effort. The Sox could elect to use Sale's game today to get the 2-1 win and salvage a game from this series while assigning Santiago's effort to yesterday's game for the 4-0 loss.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Okay. I'm not really trying to convince you. Just explaining the way I see it. Your viewpoint is clearly the one currently in fashion.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

I know. It seems kind of silly, doesn't it?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

What I'm saying is I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

I think two different presumptions are at work here.

1) The quality of a pitcher's effort in a given game depends on the final numbers he produces, irrespective of whether or not he gets the W, since earning a W or L is not directly under his control as the pitching numbers are.

2) The quality of a pitcher's effort is determined through the end result of the mano a mano match-up between the opposing pitcher, each of whom is trying to limit the opposing team to less runs scored than the other pitcher.

If this is more or less accurate, then it seems JORR is coming from the POV #2. Although I am beginning to slowly understanding JORR's perspective, I still don't get how, even if a pitcher loses a game, how the L is indicative of the quality of his start. I see the L (or W) as the result of a micro-analysis of a given game (e.g. in that specific game, pitcher X failed limit the opposing team to less runs than the other pitcher), while the more complex stats demonstrate a more macro view. In other words, I'll concede JORR's point about how a pitcher can pitch wonderfully for the better part of 7-9 innings, but lose the "game management" battle on just a single pitch. But if someone like Sale's year is just really him losing a series game management battles, many of which can be the result of just a single pitch or two, is it then fair to use that game to game, micro-level analysis against him when it comes to judging, in a more macro scale, his pitching quality over the long run?

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
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2013 CSFMB ROY

This.

Sale has no control on how his opponent pitches that day.

_________________

The point I'm making is that if you really feel a starting pitcher's effort is totally unrelated to other events within a game, you shouldn't be too upset if MLB decided to take the radical step of allowing teams to apply pitchers' performances in whichever games they desired. Of course, that seems utterly ridiculous. And it is.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don