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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:19 pm 
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Please explain why Theo gets to bottom out the Cubs for two straight years,yet guys with a "Win Now" attitude never tried to develop ML talent? I got news for you,under Hendry's watch: Prior & Wood. What's Theo got besides the mantra "wait another 2 years".

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:22 pm 
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jimmypasta wrote:
Please explain why Theo gets to bottom out the Cubs for two straight years,yet guys with a "Win Now" attitude never tried to develop ML talent? I got news for you,under Hendry's watch: Prior & Wood. What's Theo got besides the mantra "wait another 2 years".

Hendry didn't draft Prior or Wood.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:24 pm 
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Douchebag wrote:
jimmypasta wrote:
Please explain why Theo gets to bottom out the Cubs for two straight years,yet guys with a "Win Now" attitude never tried to develop ML talent? I got news for you,under Hendry's watch: Prior & Wood. What's Theo got besides the mantra "wait another 2 years".

Hendry didn't draft Prior or Wood.


Before he was GM wasn't he in charge of the Cubs minor leagues? I would think he had a lot of input.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:38 pm 
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I was just reading about Hendry on Wikipedia. I forgot how many bad deals he made,,,My God! Soriano deal actually looks OK,compared to throwing money at Fukudome,Milton Bradley,Tod Hundley,etc.

Theo has had some bad signings,too. The latest might be Rizzo.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:40 pm 
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Is the point of this thread to say that you'd rather have Hendry back?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:43 pm 
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The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
Is the point of this thread to say that you'd rather have Hendry back?


no,the point is the "teardown,give me 4-7 years bullshit" is a joke. You can have a decent major club AND rebuild.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:53 pm 
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Cano,Shin-su Choo and Curtis Granderson are FA next year.

Also maybe a Jacob Elsbury?

Get 3 or 4 of these type guys,spend the cash!


This ain't Pittsburgh!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:56 pm 
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Read Theo's comments yesterday. There isn't a giant pile of cash they are sitting on. Perhaps another baseball team might bring you more joy.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:59 pm 
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Northside_Dan wrote:
Read Theo's comments yesterday. There isn't a giant pile of cash they are sitting on. Perhaps another baseball team might bring you more joy.


that's bullshit! A few years ago the Cubs were in the top tier of salary. Where is it all going? On 14 year old Cuban SS?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:03 pm 
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jimmypasta wrote:
Cano,Shin-su Choo and Curtis Granderson are FA next year.

Also maybe a Jacob Elsbury?

Get 3 or 4 of these type guys,spend the cash!


This ain't Pittsburgh!

I have no problem in saying "spend the cash."
Hey! It's not my money, but signing high priced guys to the six and seven year contracts when they are 32 like Granderson doesn't do it for me.
Then you have a Soriano situation where you are paying a guy for a year or two to play for somebody else.
I agree 100% on Cano.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:06 pm 
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Think this is a pretty good read. The bolded part down address ML spending, but the whole thing is worth a couple minutes of your day. Obviously up to you if you chose to believe the team is as cash strapped as they are making it seem. Once the Wrigley stuff is 100% ready to go and new TV contract is negotiated, I'm expecting spending.


Browse: Home / Chicago Cubs News, Chicago Cubs Rumors / Theo Epstein Confirms the Cubs’ International Spending Approach, Discusses Free Agent Spending
Theo Epstein Confirms the Cubs’ International Spending Approach, Discusses Free Agent Spending
By Brett on August 14, 2013

MoneyWith Jen-Ho Tseng’s signing officially official, the Chicago Cubs have nailed down what is not only the most impressive international haul in this year’s market, it’s probably one of the most impressive hauls in recent memory among all of baseball. In doing so, the Cubs spent nearly $8 million to bring in Eloy Jimenez, Gleyber Torres, Jefferson Mejia, Erling Moreno, and Yohan Matos, in addition to Tseng (and likely a number of other lower-profile, less-expensive guys).

That $8 million spending spree easily blew through the Cubs’ international spending allotment, even after the organization added some pool money in trades on July 2. Blowing the budget will subject the Cubs to a 100% tax on the overage (so the total payout is going to top $10 million), and will prohibit them from spending more than $250,000 on any one player in next year’s international class. When you consider how harsh the penalties are for blowing the budget in the Draft, the Cubs are getting off light.

And that was the plan all along, according to President of Baseball Operations Theo Epstein, who recently laid out the Cubs’ approach to international free agency this year. You can read Epstein’s explanation here, here, here and here, for example.

Epstein, who referred to the approach as “a loophole we could run through and exploit,” explained that the Cubs liked the big-time targets available in this year’s class, and felt the penalties for blowing the budget were minimal. The Cubs had an opportunity to use money to acquire young talent beyond what most other teams were going to be able to do, and the Cubs took advantage.

If that sounds familiar, it could be because Epstein’s explanation for the Cubs’ approach mirrors the one I hypothesized in early July when it started to become clear that the Cubs were targeting more big-dollar youngsters than their international spending pool would allow. That lengthy piece – which even includes “loophole” right there in the title – describes the Cubs’ probable approach, and explains why the Cubs (in particular) doing it this year (in particular) makes a lot of sense.*

Epstein echoed those sentiments, right down to the lack of an international draft in 2014 (and the “poison pill” of harsher penalties kicking in if you overspend next year) being a factor. Epstein even confirmed that the trade of Roni Torreyes for international pool space was not about staying under the cap, but was instead about saving some actual money (every dollar of pool space the Cubs acquired reduced their tax bill by a dollar).

So, the plan all along was as we suspected it was: blow the budget (acquiring pool space where possible to save a little money on superfluous pieces), target the biggest names, take your (minor) lumps next year. Now we’ll see if the other aspect of the theory – the ability to trade pool slots next year for additional young talent – will play out. Epstein says the Cubs will target lesser players (since they can’t spend more than $250,000 on any one player), and they very well might. But if they can use a big pool slot to acquire a stateside talent? They just might do that.

*All credit goes to the front office on discovering and taking advantage of the loophole. I merely deduced a possible explanation for what they were doing after they’d already started doing it. Yes, there’s a little bit of back-patting going on here, but mostly just to fully lay out the international approach to those who’d not yet seen it.

* * *

Onto a related, but separate matter …

Overspending on international amateurs this year was at least partly tied to the organization’s present inability to spend huge dollars in free agency, according to Epstein (though I’m sure he’d be the first to say that they loved being able to freely spend internationally regardless). Here’s what Epstein told the media, the quotes being available at the links above (this particular version comes from Cubs.com):

“That [international] market, you’re talking $1 million here, $1 million there, and that’s the type of thing we can afford. Right now, we’re not in a position to throw around hundreds of millions of dollars in free agency, but we can do it in that [international] market and try to monopolize it as much as we can.”

That comment, designed to highlight the Cubs’ laudable international approach, is likely to set off some anger alarms among some of you who’ve meticulously documented the Cubs’ rapidly falling payroll over the last three years. For you folks, the “we can afford [$1 million here, $1 million there]” piece, and the “we’re not in a position to throw around hundreds of millions of dollars in free agency” piece will scream “cheap.”

And, since you’re already on that side of the fence, little I say here will change your mind, so you might consider checking out.

For those who like their language heavily-parsed, however, let me know a number of things that, to me, underscore that Epstein isn’t really saying much of anything here.

First, and most obviously, Epstein said “right now” the Cubs can’t be spending “hundreds of millions of dollars.” The international spending that predicated the entire discussion was for the 2013 budget year. So, when Epstein says the Cubs can’t be spending huge free agent sums “right now,” well, we already knew that. The current message has consistently been that the Cubs can’t/won’t spend big until the Wrigley Field renovation plan is fully in place (it’s not yet) and the new TV deal for the WGN portion of the games is negotiated (it hasn’t been). So, whether you think that financial approach is right or wrong, there is nothing new here.

Epstein, who chooses his public words carefully, also said hundreds (plural) of millions of dollars. On its face, that’s a, “well, I mean, yeah. I agree” kind of thing. The Cubs should almost never be throwing around hundreds of millions of dollars in a single year. Even if the Cubs were spending as robustly as some think their financial situation should allow them, I doubt they’d have enough to commit hundreds (plural) of millions of dollars – especially “right now.”

($100 million contracts are rarely a good investment anyway, especially in free agency. Epstein has always maintained that kind of an attitude since coming to the Cubs, so, once again, there’s nothing here to get too riled up about. The Cubs did try to drop $75 million on Anibal Sanchez this Winter, after all. For the right players and the right risks, the money is probably already there.)

You also always have to keep in mind that there is a layer of gamesmanship involved any time the Cubs publicly discuss spending on the organization. Not only does it impact their future free agent negotiations, but, we can’t forget: there’s still a stadium renovation to be finalized. Yes, City Council has approved the bulk of the renovation, but there are still kinks to be worked out. Kinks that could probably be addressed by the heavy hand of a motivated city. Reminding everyone that the Cubs can’t truly open up the checkbook until the renovation situation is squared away doesn’t hurt, and is very much “on message.”

I don’t think Epstein is going to be throwing ownership under the bus any time soon, so you have to read comments like this one through a lens that the baseball operations folks and the business operations folks are working together. “Right now” the large revenue streams that are expected to support a large market payroll are not in place. Coordinating with that message, the Cubs are in the middle of an organizational overhaul – the kind that necessarily lends itself to spending a lot less on the big league team.

When the time is right to spend big, and the right players are available, I still believe the front office will be given the resources it needs. It could come as soon as the next year or two – that marks the confluence of the revenue streams coming online, as well as the young core theoretically emerging into the building block of a competitive roster.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:17 pm 
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Baseball,I think is the only sport where it's really kind of hard to judge a prospect like you can in the other 3 major sports: NBA,NFL & PBA (just kidding)..WWE.


That being said,Theo really seems fasinated and preoccupied by the minors. I think it's OK,but Geez,can't they pop for some major league hitting? I knew going in to this season that the Cubs lineup was weak and that's with me thinking Castro & Rizzo would hit 40 points higher than they are. Right now,the current Cubs lineup looks humiliating. Of course losing 3 CF within a month or two doesn't help. Next season better be a lot better than this season or I won't be the only one screaming.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:23 pm 
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jimmypasta wrote:
Northside_Dan wrote:
Read Theo's comments yesterday. There isn't a giant pile of cash they are sitting on. Perhaps another baseball team might bring you more joy.


that's bullshit! A few years ago the Cubs were in the top tier of salary. Where is it all going? On 14 year old Cuban SS?



You do know that a multi-billion dollar company doesn't own them anymore, right?

(please, for the love of God, make a salient - aka non-meatball - point somewhere in this thread, please please please .... give OKC a real thrill)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:26 pm 
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If I'm a meatball because I want the Cubs to go get 3-4 decent ML hitters,than there are a couple of million meatballs out there. Wouldn't mind a Robinson Cano and maybe take a shot on an Elsbury or someone similar.

What Ameri-Trade money is no good?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:28 pm 
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jimmypasta wrote:
If I'm a meatball because I want the Cubs to go get 3-4 decent ML hitters,than there are a couple of million meatballs out there. Wouldn't mind a Robinson Cano and maybe take a shot on an Elsbury or someone similar.

What Ameri-Trade money is no good?

You want the 2013 Cubs to be the 2009 White Sox.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:30 pm 
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No,I want them to be the 1908 Chicago Cubs,damn it!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:30 pm 
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This front office has built a top 3 minor league system in baseball in very short order. Like you said though, baseball is the hardest sport to evaluate young talent so knows if any of these guys will be a quality MLB player. All you can do is stockpile as many as you can and hope for the best.

End of 2014/2015 when these names are ready for their shot, the Wrigley Deal and TV deal will be done and there will be expectations to fill holes signing Free Agents. Even then, the downside of that plan is two fold lately in baseball.

1) Teams aren't letting quality FA get to the open market. Often signing them early to long team friendly deals.

2) Teams that do blow a ton of cash trying to buy some wins tend to suck. See Angels and Blue Jays.



What if they spent some more money this past offseason that would have added 6-8 wins at the end of the year. Would you really be enjoying this season that much more? What's the point of that other than losing draft spots?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:33 pm 
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Jimmy is a way better troll than good dolphin and it's not even intentional.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:34 pm 
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jimmypasta wrote:
If I'm a meatball because I want the Cubs to go get 3-4 decent ML hitters,than there are a couple of million meatballs out there. Wouldn't mind a Robinson Cano and maybe take a shot on an Elsbury or someone similar.

What Ameri-Trade money is no good?


But throwing money around doesn't get you a fucking thing! Have you watched any MLB in the last 20 years?

And yes, part of the problem with the Cubs fandom is the overabundance of meatballs ... so, in fact, albeit by mistake, you did make a salient point after all.

LOVE the idea of signing a 30-year old ex-Yankee on the precipice of the end of his career for too much money and too many years ... oh wait, they already did that with Soriano, so FUCK that shit.
(and before you point out that you also said Elsbury, he's 29 ... bfd)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:37 pm 
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Dan,
I just think with the pitching staff they had this year (-Marmol),with some decent hitting,they could have won a lot more than 8 games. Barney is terrible,the two catchers have combined for a decent season. OF sucks,Soriano asleep for 3-4 months every year. DeJesus gets built up by Len Kasper like he's Hack Wilson. He sucks. Valbuena is a fine backup who happens to start but his glove,OBP make him an acceptable option at 3rd.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:39 pm 
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We will just have to agree to disagree.

No amount of money spent this past offseason would have made them a playoff team and it only would have served to hinder this team in the future.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:42 pm 
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Don Tiny,
So it's ok the Cubs have Darnell McDonald playing right now? I agree with you about throwing money at older guys,but let's face it,if they would have kept some pitchers they flipped in 2012 and not sign Edwin Jackson for 52 mill,they could have picked up some bats with that money.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:43 pm 
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Northside_Dan wrote:
We will just have to agree to disagree.

No amount of money spent this past offseason would have made them a playoff team and it only would have served to hinder this team in the future.


This was an odd year with 3 teams in their division playing so well. Lets not forget how many of those wins came against the Cubs though. (how many? not sure)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:46 pm 
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They are not a top 3 minor league system. They have hitters but there is a total lack of impact starting pitching. They have built some depth of back of the rotation starters and some relievers but a top 3 system has to have impact top of the line starting pitching and that is something the Cubs system sorely lacks.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:46 pm 
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jimmypasta wrote:
Don Tiny,
So it's ok the Cubs have Darnell McDonald playing right now? I agree with you about throwing money at older guys,but let's face it,if they would have kept some pitchers they flipped in 2012 and not sign Edwin Jackson for 52 mill,they could have picked up some bats with that money.

Jimmy, you never answer the who question. The one time you did it was Jeff Keppinger. Who could they have picked up the past two offseasons that would've driven them to postseason glory?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:47 pm 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
They are not a top 3 minor league system. They have hitters but there is a total lack of impact starting pitching. They have built some depth of back of the rotation starters and some relievers but a top 3 system has to have impact top of the line starting pitching and that is something the Cubs system sorely lacks.


Hey,What about Chris Rusin?


JK,but he might be the next Larry Gura,who knows?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:50 pm 
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jimmypasta wrote:
Don Tiny,
So it's ok the Cubs have Darnell McDonald playing right now? I agree with you about throwing money at older guys,but let's face it,if they would have kept some pitchers they flipped in 2012 and not sign Edwin Jackson for 52 mill,they could have picked up some bats with that money.


It's not necessarily a matter of "ok", it's that there's not any other realistic, plausible choice.

They're clearly marking time to wait for what they're building .... this is not a secret .... pitching also gets treated differently than position players - their value is different, their pay-scale is different .... comparing positional players personnel choices to pitchers personnel choices doesn't really match up.

Jackson appears to be well worth his contract .... he also could be trade bait today, tomorrow, next year, etc .... in that sense it's really a no-lose situation (unless he tries out a Dave Dravecky impersonation, but that's no more than the chance one takes crossing the street).

Incidentally, who SPECIFICALLY would have been guaranteed winners that they could have picked up at that exact time they signed Jackson anyway?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:51 pm 
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Treading water by hovering around the .500 mark doesn't help the rebuilding process since it costs you draft spots, as ND mentioned. Signing pricey free agents to marginally increase the win total is not only inefficient, it also stunts progress. That being said, if the pedestrian Cubs teams of the past few years actually threatened to make the playoffs with the roster as currently constructed, I wouldn't advocate that Epstein sit everyone in order to miss the playoffs and score a better draft position. I doubt that was part of the plan, but it would be better than investing in older players whose value would have deteriorated around the time the expected "core" players start to consistently produce at MLB levels.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:55 pm 
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I'll be positive about one thing. The last 10 years or so,the Cubs seem to have decent starting pitching. This year no exception. It hasn't been great,but most times they are keeping them in the game.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:57 pm 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
They are not a top 3 minor league system.


Obviously rankings are subjective, but there are multiple people who believe they have a top 3. Top 10 for sure at this point. Was just using that to illustrate my larger point.

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