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 Post subject: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:36 am 
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It's running rampant. Ditka was a bad coach, Butkus was a bum, Lebron>Jordan, running to first doesn't matter, castro just needs more time to mature.....

I'm sick of this whole "too cool to fly my meatball flag" trend.

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:42 am 
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Ditka wasn't a great coach. I would say he was average at best. Had a great defensive coordinator. New Orleans did more to hurt his reputation than anything.

I've never personally heard Butkus was a bum, but I don't think he would be effective in today's NFL.

The biggest problem is that you can't compare the NFL across eras. At all. It leads to nothing good.

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:46 am 
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Is it really anti-meatball to say Lebron > Jordan? I'd say they are getting pretty damn close. The next 2-3 seasons should tell us for good who is the better player.

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:49 am 
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I'd say LeBron has to get at least 2 more titles before you can really start saying he was better.

Ditka was a great coach who let his own success and his team's success get to his head. That and a couple injuries forever killed his chances of being considered "great" anywhere outside of Chicago. That team should have been in at least 2 more Super Bowls with at least 1 more SB victory.

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:50 am 
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sjboyd0137 wrote:
I've never personally heard Butkus was a bum, but I don't think he would be effective in today's NFL.


But why? He wss bigger, faster, and stronger than most guys playing his position today.

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:51 am 
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Douchebag wrote:
Is it really anti-meatball to say Lebron > Jordan?


Of course. If you are a meatball Bulls fan, Jordan is the greatest there will ever be. That's the very definition of meatball.

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:54 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
It's running rampant. Ditka was a bad coach, Butkus was a bum, Lebron>Jordan, running to first doesn't matter, castro just needs more time to mature.....

I'm sick of this whole "too cool to fly my meatball flag" trend.

:cheers:

Being a meatball is the best. All for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:55 am 
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Who exactly is this thread directed towards? There isn't a very strong anti-meatball contingent on this board. I think everyone here goes off the deep end meatball-wise from time to time. I know I do when it comes to the NBA.

If this is another "I hate Dan Bernstein" thread, I agree with you (we should hate Dan Bernstein), but I think it's displaced.

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:00 am 
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Actually what spurred it this A.M. was the Alex Rios fanboys who deny he was a lazy piece of crap and that anyone who thinks he was must be a racist of some sort. This is a continuing meme on the Sox fanboards. Note I did not partake and am not "butthurt." Just an observation.

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:05 am 
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I see.

Well, I'd try not to use the opinions of fans on any board as an indicator of the general consensus.

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:07 am 
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I have no problem with the (alleged) marginalization of sports meatballs, both here and abroad.

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:11 am 
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Don Tiny wrote:
I have no problem with the (alleged) marginalization of sports meatballs, both here and abroad.

Leave da broads outta it!

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:12 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
sjboyd0137 wrote:
I've never personally heard Butkus was a bum, but I don't think he would be effective in today's NFL.


But why? He wss bigger, faster, and stronger than most guys playing his position today.

It seems to me that most of the guys coming at him are, too.

I feel like the game when he played was more defensive based, and now, it's a heavily favored offensive based game.

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:20 am 
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Even Mac was ridiculing Butkus the other day, really hammering the "white running backs" theory. Sad day when Mac is mimicking Bernsy.

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:37 am 
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The objective

Michael Keller Ditka 106-62, 1 NFL Championship, 2 additional NFC championship appearances, 6 NFC Central Division Championships, 7 playoff appearances...all in 11 years of coaching the Beloved. Three losing seasons in that time, his first, his last and 1989.

The subjective

The Bears were an absolute mess when he took over the position. I believe they had something like 1 playoff appearance in 20 years and the great Buddy Ryan had been a defensive coordinator for them during those down years. The team immediately became better when he took over. He took a 6-10 team, brought it to .500 in two years and 15-1 in four years.

Detractors would have you believe he was somehow along for the ride in those 11 SEASONS or that it was a matter of great drafting. Even the most disloyal of his players would ever make that accusation...and what did Buddy Ryan and his bloated prodigy do without Ditka? They are almost 30 years deep in underproduction.

Sure the drafting was good but you cannot explain the consistently superior production the Bears received from lower round draft picks without looking to coaching. Bortz, Hilgenberg, Dent, Fencik and Butler became pro bowlers under his coaching despite being passed by teams on draft day. Every shitty TE they acquired seem to produce. The depth along his offensive line was unmatched.

This does not even address the work he did in Dallas. He lasted NINE season with one of the greatest coaches in the history of football. That special teams in Dallas were always top notch. He, of course, also won a Super Bowl as an assistant.

The Saints years were not good, but that was a completely different situation. Ditka was given control of personnel and he was horrible at it. The Ricky Williams trade had failure written all over it from the beginning and set the franchise back for years. How many other great coaches have ended their careers in a similarly bad fashion with a second franchise...the list would be substantial.

Bottom line: Ditka would have most likely made the Hall of Fame had he never played a down of football in the league. He was a great coach and an icon for the league.

BEARRRSSSS!

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:47 am 
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Furious Styles wrote:
Don Tiny wrote:
I have no problem with the (alleged) marginalization of sports meatballs, both here and abroad.

Leave da broads outta it!



Image

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:51 am 
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The Jordan v. Lebron debate obviously has to be directed to "at their best" as Lebron still has time left on his career. If you are restricting it to those terms, is there a single objective metric that shows Lebron's best is better than Jordan's best? I never hear a statistical argument from people who pride themselves on a clinical analysis in just about every other debate.

Subjectively, the fuck you talking about? How can a person make an argument about Butkus in a less physically able era and then not hold Lebron to the same standard. Jordan was the best player in the best era of NBA basketball. He shouldered far more duties than Lebron does on the court on a daily basis.

This seems silly to me and I wouldn't even argue the point until someone first proposes something compelling to open the debate.

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:16 am 
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Butkus: the measurable sure seem to indicate a guy who would be a top pick to this day 6'3", 245 with a reported 4.5 40 time. The stats back it up further that he could play in today's offensively preferred game with speed being prioritized on defense. He had 22 interceptions in 8 years including five in one year. Obviously he was effective on passing downs. Further, he had 27 fumble recoveries. His 49 recovered turnovers were a record at the time. Take the name off this paragraph and his guy sounds like Lovie's wet dream as a player.

The argument that he wouldn't be great today is untenable and it sucks that guys like Terry, who saw him first hand, agree with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:45 pm 
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good work in this thread, good dolphin.


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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:50 pm 
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ITS HOCKEY. DERES FIGHTING. GET USED TO IT.

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:40 am 
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Good Dolphin killing it.

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:10 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
The objective

Michael Keller Ditka 106-62, 1 NFL Championship, 2 additional NFC championship appearances, 6 NFC Central Division Championships, 7 playoff appearances...all in 11 years of coaching the Beloved. Three losing seasons in that time, his first, his last and 1989.

The subjective

The Bears were an absolute mess when he took over the position. I believe they had something like 1 playoff appearance in 20 years and the great Buddy Ryan had been a defensive coordinator for them during those down years. The team immediately became better when he took over. He took a 6-10 team, brought it to .500 in two years and 15-1 in four years.

Detractors would have you believe he was somehow along for the ride in those 11 SEASONS or that it was a matter of great drafting. Even the most disloyal of his players would ever make that accusation...and what did Buddy Ryan and his bloated prodigy do without Ditka? They are almost 30 years deep in underproduction.

Sure the drafting was good but you cannot explain the consistently superior production the Bears received from lower round draft picks without looking to coaching. Bortz, Hilgenberg, Dent, Fencik and Butler became pro bowlers under his coaching despite being passed by teams on draft day. Every shitty TE they acquired seem to produce. The depth along his offensive line was unmatched.

This does not even address the work he did in Dallas. He lasted NINE season with one of the greatest coaches in the history of football. That special teams in Dallas were always top notch. He, of course, also won a Super Bowl as an assistant.

The Saints years were not good, but that was a completely different situation. Ditka was given control of personnel and he was horrible at it. The Ricky Williams trade had failure written all over it from the beginning and set the franchise back for years. How many other great coaches have ended their careers in a similarly bad fashion with a second franchise...the list would be substantial.

Bottom line: Ditka would have most likely made the Hall of Fame had he never played a down of football in the league. He was a great coach and an icon for the league.

BEARRRSSSS!


Well said & 100% correct.

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:06 am 
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sjboyd0137 wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
sjboyd0137 wrote:
I've never personally heard Butkus was a bum, but I don't think he would be effective in today's NFL.


But why? He wss bigger, faster, and stronger than most guys playing his position today.

It seems to me that most of the guys coming at him are, too.

I feel like the game when he played was more defensive based, and now, it's a heavily favored offensive based game.


That's fair. Obviously, the game is different. But it cuts both ways. Drew Brees isn't better than Johnny Unitas just because he throws for more yards. Each player is a product of his time.

Still, I think Butkus is a special player, one of those who would shine in any era. Urlacher is probably a guy that will be underrated. A guy with his size and speed who played the way he did is a special thing. Singletary is the guy that is overrated. '85 Bears forever!!!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:25 am 
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I dunno. Old timers like me grew up believing in the American Dream and hard work and all the crap. Bust your butt and you'll go far.

Bunch of crap I guess. But it would be nice to see players pretend to bust their ass for my enjoyment (and $$).

The youth of today (meaning anyone younger than ME) :lol: laugh at the grindy overacheiving types.

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:30 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
I dunno. Old timers like me grew up believing in the American Dream and hard work and all the crap. Bust your butt and you'll go far.
Certainly not always true. That's some romanticized bullshit. A lot of hard workers get bad breaks. There are a few on this board out of work through no fault of their own. Plenty of generationally-wealthy people who haven't had to work a day in their lives either.

Hatchetman wrote:
The youth of today (meaning anyone younger than ME) :lol: laugh at the grindy overacheiving types.
That's a patently untrue stereotype. You're kinda strawman-ing it a little bit.

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:33 am 
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I just said it was probably a bunch of crap and laughed at my own idiocy.

I'm just an old guy tilting at windmills.

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:09 am 
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The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
[ There are a few on this board out of work through no fault of their own. Plenty of generationally-wealthy people who haven't had to work a day in their lives either..


cough- dr. ken's kids-cough

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:22 am 
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finally, Starlin Castro: the guy doesn't need any more time for development. He is finished as far as needing improvement in skills. He is at a crossroads as a player. It is all in his head whether he chooses to be great.

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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:22 am 
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Antimeatballism goes so far the otehr way it becomes its own form of meatballism

Like when Rongey says Win Loss is completely meaningless or Bernstein insinuates that effort has zero effect on any sport at the highest level


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 Post subject: Re: Antimeatballism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:32 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Antimeatballism goes so far the otehr way it becomes its own form of meatballism

Like when Rongey says Win Loss is completely meaningless or Bernstein insinuates that effort has zero effect on any sport at the highest level



Very true. Thinking Fan's Meatballism.

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