What do you mean? You mean they were starting to overpay and focus on the draft?

If that's what you're saying, then yes. Too bad it was so late for Hendry (his last year) and too bad he made picks like Hayden Simpson (SCOUTING!!) before that.


Hendry was fine. I want Theo to be Hendry but without the major dropoff. That's where the pipeline of good players comes in. So you dont fall off the Free Agent cliff

What I mean is that the Cubs have had a farm system stocked with players since well before Theo Epstein was born. At certain times many of the guys in that farm system have been highly regarded, particularly by Cub fans. So when we say that the Cubs have changed philosophy, all we're really saying is that we believe Theo is a better evaluator of talent than the guys who came before. That might be true. It might not.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

No, its not about just having a good run of minor league players its about the importance of development.

Historically, and especially under the Tribune, the Cubs have gone on the cheap with development and minor league instruction.

After seeing them develop so few players over the years, Im happy they are addressing that HUGE issue that has a lot to do with winning consistently.

Its not Theo. If Andrew Friedman or Rich Hahn came in and focused on development, Id be just as happy about that.

I'm not really sure that "development" is anything more than a corporate buzzword though. Hasn't every team since God invented baseball tried to develop players?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

What?

Yes they try.

Every person in the world tries to be successful too. Only the ones who make the right choices realize that goal.

Corporate buzzword?

Cmon man. You are way out on this. You dont think organizations like the Braves, Cardinals, Twins, and White Sox have benefitted from better development?


I mean, are you saying developing players doesnt matter? What are you saying?

I think those top organizations have benefited from better players. I don't know how much "development" has to do with it. I think it may have had much more importance in the past. Now you've got guys who have had personal coaches since they were ten years old. How are you supposed to "develop" that guy?

If you're saying that it's a good idea to have a consistent organizational philosophy, I'd probably agree. But a lot of those "Ways" incorporate philosophies that have been declared obsolete by advanced statistical analysis. If we have this discussion it isn't going to be long before we're talking about protection, bunting, and hitting behind the runner, etc., all things the Sabermetric community has scoffed at to some degree. So I don't think you can really have it both ways.

I'm not going to say the "Cubs Way" is responsible for Castro's shitty year. But Castro himself says it was. I'm not sure that for every guy you "develop" with your methodology- whatever that may be- there isn't another guy that you ruin.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

More like since Branch Rickey invented the farm system, but in the same way that every team tries to win the World Series, some do it better than others. The Cubs developed a few good players but for the most part were pretty bad at identifying and nurturing talent. Even the Cardinals, who we're all swooning over right now, had a recent stretch of years where they let the farm system go to shit because they were just signing and trading for major-league talent. I understand the importance of building a reliable stream of cost-controlled talent. It served the Braves, Orioles, and Cardinals well. On the other hand, the Twins and Expos had great farm systems and never won anything.

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That pretty well sums it up.

I don't understand why every time something news worthy comes up regarding the Cubs that this has to be re-explained to certain posters here.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

I disagree on development. I think it is as important as ever.

If you go cheap on minor league instruction, it will show up eventually.


The Cubs way thing is fine, you have to have a philosophy. But you cant be so rigid as to waste talent. Its a balancing act.



I gotta say, these discussions seem to be less about the Cubs and baseball and more about anyway you can prove "Theo is not a genius!"

But I dont think he is and havent said he is, so I dont want to argue that. He's a good gm to me. That's it.

What does minor league instruction consist of? And do you really think you can break a guy of seventeen years of habits that you don't like? I think most of that is just a baseball version of corporate-speak on "The ______ Way", something many of us have heard in various workplaces (and probably muttered about under our breath).

It really comes down to talent. If Theo is a better talent evaluator than most GMs, the Cubs will be better than most teams. It's like that kid you grew up with whose dad was living vicariously through him as he played sports. The dad coached and the kid batted third and played short but he was really no good. The dad sent him to baseball camps and the kid played a million games a year in travel ball and had special instructors, etc. Then the kid who might not have had a father but was just bigger, faster, and stronger showed up and made that kid look like a douche without ever having played much at all. All the "ways" in the world can't make that first kid better.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Like I said, I very much disagree on development and its place.

Okay. We disagree. I think guys are who they are and you can't polish a turd. There is no system for making Gordon Beckham into Joe Morgan.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Well no shit. All Morgan kidding aside, he was one of the top 2nd basemen to ever play the game.

I think there certainly is a place for development that could turn Gordon Beckham type guys into Jason Kipnis or Asdrubal Cabrera All Star type guys.

_________________

How do you make Beckham hit better?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

I guess you help him with pitch selection and approach since he's facing better competition than ever.

I don't know. I'm not an MLB coach. And up until now, this wasn't your point.

I'm saying that its possible that thru development, or organizational philosophy, to get more than you thought out of a particular player. I don't really know how you can deny that, Orr.

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Out of order, I show you out of order. You don't know what out of order is, Mr. Ricketts. I'd show you, but I'm too old, I'm too tired, I'm too fuckin' blind. If I were the man I was five years ago, I'd take a FLAMETHROWER to this place! Out of order? Who the hell do you think you're talkin' to? I've been around, you know? There was a time I could see. And I have seen. Boys like these, younger than these, batting .200, swinging and missing. But there is nothin' like the sight of an amputated spirit. There is no prosthetic for that. You think you're merely sending this splendid shortstop back down to Iowa with his tail between his legs, but I say you are... executin' his soul! And why? Because he didn't do it the "Cubs Way". Cubs Way. You hurt this boy, you're gonna be Cubs bums, the lot of ya. And Theo, Jed, Jason, wherever you are out there, FUCK YOU TOO!

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

I'm not against what they are doing, I'm just very worried right now because there have been 3 terrible seasons in a row. If 2014 is awful, that puts a lot of pressure on 2015 and all the young players. I want to be able to look back on this thread and laugh that I was worried but watching all of this losing is getting to me.

Is it unreasonable as a fan to start to get antsy watching your team lose almost 300 times in 3 seasons?

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Nope not unreasonable at all. And I would think that just about every Cub fan, even those who are good with the plan in place have similar feelings.

But personally I would rather be antsy watching this knowing that there is a plan in place that I can support rather than being antsy watching this knowing that they are just committed to be the same ole Cubs and hoping that once a decade maybe they will contend for the playoffs.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

either you can play ball or not. picking the right guys is 100X more important than instruction.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Yeah, I'm looking for something next season. Some glimmer of hope, I cant keep falling back to the farm system because it's all hearsay and speculation.

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Basically,it will be interesting if Theo & company "blink" this offseason and get some major league hitters. If they don't try,they should cancel the Cub Convention because BELIEVE this,there are a lot more Cub fans thinking like me then thinking like the small group on here who believe another 95-100 loss season is fine!

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favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

You probably shouldnt speak for anyone other than yourself, James

And the mere fact that the Convention exists proves your point wrong.

Delete this post

This guy gets it.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

So wait, do Cub fans love Theo and believe everything they say?

Or are they stark raving mad?


You guys need to get together on this stuff, before it goes to print

The tides are turning. I'd like to think that JORR, good dolphin, and me are finally starting to convince people. One day, Bucky Chris may even stop being an apologist for all things Theo!

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Theo should have an exclamatioin point in his name

I fail to understand why the Cubs can't have a more respectable major team with better caliber utilitarian players AND be on their plan? Can't they still trade away the better players in July for prospects?

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Elections have consequences.

This is what I said going into 2012 but I just got laughed at and all the meatball bullshit thrown at me.

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favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

They did until the ASB.