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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:26 pm 
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Hoping for a feel-good Friday, but I fear we will be subjected to hearing how stupid Bears fans are. Listen or do not listen. I'm tuning in for the start.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:40 pm 
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the cops? where

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:46 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:06 pm 
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Uh-oh, really smart people at Football Outsiders, using stats, say it's a mistake to start Cutler over McCown. How will Bersntein respond to these obvious idiots?
http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/ ... osh-mccown

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In terms of name recognition, the decision shouldn't be a hard one. Jay Cutler is the starter, Josh McCown has been the career backup. Even during the course of McCown's current stretch as the Chicago Bears' starter, coach Marc Trestman has maintained that Cutler is the preferred starter when he returned to health. In that light, Trestman's decision to go back to Cutler makes total sense.

But that position discounts the recent performance of McCown under center. Career backup or not, McCown has performed at an extremely high level since relieving the injured Cutler. And that's what makes Trestman's decision surprising. In sitting McCown, the Bears aren't benching a run-of-the-mill backup, they're benching the hottest QB in the National Football League. And in the context of what best aids Chicago's postseason chances, the Bears are making a mistake.

Let's start with the upside argument. Cutler's supporters often have pointed to his impressive potential, his big arm and his ability to be special if he ever could pull it all together. But at age 30, Cutler still hasn't materialized as a top-end NFL QB. In fact, Cutler has never been as good as McCown has been in this recent stretch.

It's not just that McCown is the NFC Offensive Player of the Week after shredding Dallas with five total touchdowns. He's been very good in all seven appearances this season. McCown has a 109.8 passer rating, which would officially rank as one of the highest in NFL history with four more attempts (224 needed to qualify). The best Cutler has done in eight seasons was an 88.5 rating on 137 attempts as a rookie in 2006. (He's at 88.4 this season.) McCown has had at least a 100.0 rating in his past three games, which is something Cutler has achieved once in his career (2009).

[+] EnlargeJosh McCown
Jonathan Daniel/Getty ImagesJosh McCown has limited turnovers and maximized the Bears' chances of victory.

Total QBR factors in all facets of quarterback play, and McCown leads the league with an 85.7 this season (Cutler: 63.2). Yes, he's even ahead of Peyton Manning (83.5) entering Week 15. McCown's QBR would be the fourth-highest season by any quarterback since 2006. At Football Outsiders, McCown ranks sixth in DVOA passing efficiency this season, compared to 15th for Cutler, who ranked 21st or worse in his previous four seasons with Chicago.

Beyond efficiency, McCown's provided volume as well. He's passed for at least 348 yards and multiple touchdowns in his past three starts. Cutler has six games like that in his whole career and none was in back-to-back games. And McCown has more than just pretty individual stats. He's producing points to help the Bears rank second in the league in points per game (28.3). McCown has started 60 offensive drives this season and the Bears are averaging 2.65 points per drive with him. That would rank second in the league behind only Denver (2.91). On Cutler's 84 drives, the Bears have averaged 2.00 points per drive, which would rank 12th.

McCown's not putting up hollow stats; he's producing meaningful numbers. The Bears have won three of his five starts and he led a fourth-quarter comeback and game-winning drive against Baltimore. Off the bench, he was able to lead a go-ahead touchdown drive in Washington before the defense surrendered the late lead and against Detroit, he calmly directed a 74-yard touchdown drive in the final two minutes, but the two-point conversion run failed in a 21-19 loss.

To be fair, Cutler has played two of the stingier defenses (Cincinnati and New Orleans) this season, while McCown's toughest foe was Baltimore (No. 8 in DVOA) on a poor field following a significant weather delay. That said, Cutler's more daunting opponent has been himself.

One of the flaws in Cutler's game has always been the risky throws that get intercepted. Both quarterbacks have 13 touchdown passes, but Cutler has thrown eight interceptions compared to one for McCown, who leads the league with a 0.45 interception percentage. Cutler's never had a stretch in his career where he's done better than eight touchdowns with one interception. At times, he just can't help himself from scratching the turnover itch. Conversely, the only two turnovers by McCown this season came in St. Louis with the Bears down 14 and 21 points in the final minutes -- essentially desperation-time plays.

The Bears can get big numbers and clutch moments from Cutler, but after eight seasons he's never shown the ability to deliver consistently, perform efficiently and progress into a better quarterback. So much of today's Cutler is that same 23-year-old kid with the incredible arm who could make the highlight-worthy throw -- but kill his team with a bone-headed decision on the next play.

McCown may not be the long-term solution at quarterback for the Bears, and his career numbers suggest he may simply be riding a streak. But his recent play makes him the hottest quarterback in the NFL, and with the season coming down to crunch time, wouldn't you prefer to go with the hot hand rather than a historically erratic QB coming back from injury?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:07 pm 
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KDdidit wrote:
McCown may not be the long-term solution at quarterback for the Bears, and his career numbers suggest he may simply be riding a streak. But his recent play makes him the hottest quarterback in the NFL, and with the season coming down to crunch time, wouldn't you prefer to go with the hot hand rather than a historically erratic QB coming back from injury?
The concept of the hot hand doesn't exist. I was told that yesterday.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:08 pm 
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I wonder on days like today exactly how many people in this show's audience want a segment on college football.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:17 pm 
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what scares me is the bears play better with mcowen. they like him a LOT more then cutler, and it shows on gameday.

in most circumstances, jay starts. but not this team, not this year. mcowen got these guys fired up and playing great. you put jay in now and its going to derail.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:18 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
KDdidit wrote:
McCown may not be the long-term solution at quarterback for the Bears, and his career numbers suggest he may simply be riding a streak. But his recent play makes him the hottest quarterback in the NFL, and with the season coming down to crunch time, wouldn't you prefer to go with the hot hand rather than a historically erratic QB coming back from injury?
The concept of the hot hand doesn't exist. I was told that yesterday.


tell that to the ravens or giants

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:26 pm 
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Obviously those useless fucking hacks at Football Outsiders have never heard of Hypothetical Jay Cutler .

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:24 pm 
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I've listened only sporadically over the last 18 months or so, but I've never heard Dan reference Football Outsiders even once. What's really funny is that the Hockey-Lovin' Meatball Singalong Jamboroo from 9-1 has referenced them repeatedly.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:02 pm 
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the score only has 3 or 4 sources and 2 or 3 advertisers.. its pathetic

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:35 pm 
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Not a great show today. The Larry DiNardo song was funny. I was dying when Billick kept pronouncing McCown wrong. but not bad either. I switched off for Bob and MIke.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:38 pm 
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How can they not see that they do bad radio?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:50 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
How can they not see that they do bad radio?



They can't see, because of radio.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:52 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
KDdidit wrote:
McCown may not be the long-term solution at quarterback for the Bears, and his career numbers suggest he may simply be riding a streak. But his recent play makes him the hottest quarterback in the NFL, and with the season coming down to crunch time, wouldn't you prefer to go with the hot hand rather than a historically erratic QB coming back from injury?
The concept of the hot hand doesn't exist. I was told that yesterday.


Now, I'm going to lose all faith in you Rick, if you tell me you believe in the hot hand.

Do you play poker? Want to start?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:03 am 
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24_Guy wrote:
Now, I'm going to lose all faith in you Rick, if you tell me you believe in the hot hand.
There are logical reasons to believe that a player can play at a better than expected level for a relatively short time period. They may have been able to temporarily suppress a bad habit, or the league may not have enough information on them to take advantage of their weaknesses, or it may just be flat out confidence in himself and from his teammates.

Let's take Joe Flacco last year in the playoffs. If he was really that amazing of a quarterback, why doesn't he ever come close to that? Was it just random luck that for a complete playoff season he was as good as just about any quarterback has ever been in the playoffs? The answer clearly is not that he actively chose to be better. So, it was either random luck, or there are periods in a career where you can play much better than your baseline level of production indicates.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:05 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
24_Guy wrote:
Now, I'm going to lose all faith in you Rick, if you tell me you believe in the hot hand.
There are logical reasons to believe that a player can play at a better than expected level for a relatively short time period. They may have been able to temporarily suppress a bad habit, or the league may not have enough information on them to take advantage of their weaknesses, or it may just be flat out confidence in himself and from his teammates.

Let's take Joe Flacco last year in the playoffs. If he was really that amazing of a quarterback, why doesn't he ever come close to that? Was it just random luck that for a complete playoff season he was as good as just about any quarterback has ever been in the playoffs? The answer clearly is not that he actively chose to be better. So, it was either random luck, or there are periods in a career where you can play much better than your baseline level of production indicates.



Besides that, the "hot hand" comment was merely wrapping up an article that included copious statistics in support of McCown.

Beyond the simple Cutler vs. McCown dynamic, this shows why statistics and the guys who spout them are usually bullshit. bernstein only uses Scott in Davenport to support the narratives he has already selected. And that doesn't make bernstein an anomaly. It's like Vince Scully said, "Statistics are often used as a drunk uses a lamppost- for support rather than illumination." Pretty much it comes down to this: Statistics are everything. Until they aren't.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:59 am 
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24_Guy wrote:
pittmike wrote:
How can they not see that they do bad radio?



They can't see, because of radio.

Non-24.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:26 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
24_Guy wrote:
Now, I'm going to lose all faith in you Rick, if you tell me you believe in the hot hand.
There are logical reasons to believe that a player can play at a better than expected level for a relatively short time period. They may have been able to temporarily suppress a bad habit, or the league may not have enough information on them to take advantage of their weaknesses, or it may just be flat out confidence in himself and from his teammates.

Let's take Joe Flacco last year in the playoffs. If he was really that amazing of a quarterback, why doesn't he ever come close to that? Was it just random luck that for a complete playoff season he was as good as just about any quarterback has ever been in the playoffs? The answer clearly is not that he actively chose to be better. So, it was either random luck, or there are periods in a career where you can play much better than your baseline level of production indicates.



Agree with your definition of the "hot hand". But we also agree that is has an expiration date. So here's the debate from Trestman's POV (aside from whatever politics might be involved):

Hot hand was just OK on the road against mediocre STL defense
Hot hand was just OK on the road against bad 31st-worst MINN defense
Hot hand was very hot at home against 32nd-worst DAL defense
Up next: on the road against 7th ranked defense.

You know Cinderella is turning into a pumpkin at some point (yes I said it that way on purpose). If you continue with the hot hand, when do you decide it's gone cold? What if the Bears are down 7-0 after qtr 1? Too soon? What if it's 17-3 at halftime? At that point you're giving the Great Cutler one half to overcome a 14 point deficit. He's likely be rusty anyway, so, I'd rather he get 4 quarters and a 0-0 score then have him come to the rescue later.

Regarding runs like Flacco's - I don't like the word luck, but, there is certainly statistical variance, and it can swing wider than people think. Roulette wheels can have runs of 6,7,8 in a row black or red several times in an hour. People think that's highly unlikely, but it's really not.


Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Beyond the simple Cutler vs. McCown dynamic, this shows why statistics and the guys who spout them are usually bullshit. bernstein only uses Scott in Davenport to support the narratives he has already selected. And that doesn't make bernstein an anomaly. It's like Vince Scully said, "Statistics are often used as a drunk uses a lamppost- for support rather than illumination." Pretty much it comes down to this: Statistics are everything. Until they aren't.


I don't think I've heard that quote before; that's a great one. :lol: It goes both ways though. There are some people that will suddenly abandon stats for "the eye test". "I don't care what the numbers say, just look how he plays!" Stats have a function but they are rarely perfect and often not even close to it.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:31 pm 
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We'd better not hear the Jay is rusty excuse if he's bad tomorrow. He's 100% and should be ready to make plays according to his coach.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:36 pm 
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Having said all that Rick, I DO have an issue with the "hot hand" dismissal in a lot of instances. Stats guys will always say, in basketball, just because a guy makes 5 shots in a row doesn't mean you should keep dishing it to him. Well I say, yes you SHOULD! Of course it could be variance that made the shots drop, but, what if the guy guarding him is tired? Or bad, or hurting? What if the shooter got a good night's rest for a change? What if, as you point out, he's temporarily suppressing a bad habit of his, even unknowingly? So, yes I understand stats and variance, but, I disagree with the stat nerds somewhat on this one, because, these aren't robots that are playing these games.

(But, I'm not keeping a star player on the bench because a sub is "hot" - don't take my argument that far and apply it to the Cutler/McCown debate).


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:39 pm 
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badrogue17 wrote:
We'd better not hear the Jay is rusty excuse if he's bad tomorrow. He's 100% and should be ready to make plays according to his coach.


It's not an excuse, it could likely be true. It's also true that Cleveland is a better defense than any defense McCown has played against. So yeah, if "Cutty" has a bad game, it will suck, but, that doesn't mean the hot McCown was going to pick up where he left off against Dallas. Just like if I throw away 10-3 in poker even though it happened to win for me last hand in the big blind. Every hand is different, and I want to play only the best hands. If my AA gets cracked later, it doesn't mean I should have played the 10-3 again.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:54 pm 
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McCown hasn't done anything that would warrant a benching, and it's not like he is being replaced by someone who is putting up Rodgers-like numbers. The truth is Cutler hasn't done anything to deserve this supposed must-start status when his backup is performing as capably as McCown is. I do think Cutler is a long-term starter, whether here or elsewhere, but as of now, at this juncture in the season, benching Josh McCown for Jay Cutler is reckless and simply the wrong move to make.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:10 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
I do think Cutler is a long-term starter, whether here or elsewhere...



Obviously, he's proven that much. I just think we've gone beyond the point where anyone should expect him to ever be elite. As for McCown, I don't know whether he can be a long-term starter or not, but I do think it's unfair to simply dismiss the possibility out of hand.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:27 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I do think Cutler is a long-term starter, whether here or elsewhere...



Obviously, he's proven that much. I just think we've gone beyond the point where anyone should expect him to ever be elite. As for McCown, I don't know whether he can be a long-term starter or not, but I do think it's unfair to simply dismiss the possibility out of hand.


This is probably a really bad example, but I would equate what I think is accurate perspective on McCown's success to what Elway and countless others thought about Tebow's success in 2011: we're ecstatic your play is inexplicably leading to wins, but we don't think it's going to last very long, which is why you don't factor into our long-term plans.

For Tebow the issue was talent, but for McCown I think it's simply age. As I said elsewhere, he's having the right year, professionally, at the wrong time. If he was Cutler's age or younger, I don't think we'd be having this conversation.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:36 pm 
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So the midget English major feels thereatened? LOL
Why doesn't he just put a sign on his forehead(it's big enough),
that says
DON'T HIT ME, I AM A GIANT PUSSY

Now that would finally be a true statement from the very tiny little prick.
Bernstein, I know your ego is huge and you read the board, but you are small in every category,
except being a giant PRICK. FU.

Have a good evening folks.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:56 am 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I do think Cutler is a long-term starter, whether here or elsewhere...



Obviously, he's proven that much. I just think we've gone beyond the point where anyone should expect him to ever be elite. As for McCown, I don't know whether he can be a long-term starter or not, but I do think it's unfair to simply dismiss the possibility out of hand.


This is probably a really bad example, but I would equate what I think is accurate perspective on McCown's success to what Elway and countless others thought about Tebow's success in 2011: we're ecstatic your play is inexplicably leading to wins, but we don't think it's going to last very long, which is why you don't factor into our long-term plans.

For Tebow the issue was talent, but for McCown I think it's simply age. As I said elsewhere, he's having the right year, professionally, at the wrong time. If he was Cutler's age or younger, I don't think we'd be having this conversation.


That's probably true, but a quarterback can easily last until 40. Especially now, when there are rules that almost prevent them from being hit. If you think the guy can continue to perform the way he has this season, there's no reason to think he can't do it for three more years. Are we really looking beyond three years down the road with the Bears? Again, I'm not sure what to think of McCown, but based on the way he has run this offense, I can't see breaking the bank for Cutler when the performance doesn't figure to be that much different with McCown and the money he will cost. And maybe a guy like Schaub would be even better. I just think it's a huge mistake to lock onto Cutler as if there are no other viable options.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:04 am 
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veganfan21 wrote:
This is probably a really bad example, but I would equate what I think is accurate perspective on McCown's success to what Elway and countless others thought about Tebow's success in 2011: we're ecstatic your play is inexplicably leading to wins, but we don't think it's going to last very long, which is why you don't factor into our long-term plans.
The major difference though is that it isn't really that McCown is winning. It's that this year McCown is playing better than Jay Cutler has in his whole career either in Chicago or in Denver. Jay Cutler has never been this good in his life.

They are going back to Cutler and Cutler has to play better than he has in his life to match what McCown was doing and likely would have continued to do at least for a little while.

That is the interesting thing here. The fear is that McCown will go back to his expected level of production so we are replacing him with a guy who you have to expect will perform as about the 12th-15th best quarterback in the league. Jay Cutler, the worst franchise quarterback in the league!

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:08 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Jay Cutler, the worst franchise quarterback in the league!


Exactly. And that's really worse than having a lesser guy, because you're going to have to pay him as if he's good when he's really not. That's why it's absurd when someone like bernstein thinks $1.5 million is too much for McCown.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:14 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Jay Cutler, the worst franchise quarterback in the league!


Exactly. And that's really worse than having a lesser guy, because you're going to have to pay him as if he's good when he's really not. That's why it's absurd when someone like bernstein thinks $1.5 million is too much for McCown.
Well, Bernstein clarified that McCown only deserves more money if another team is willing to pay him more money, so there is that.

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