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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:34 pm 
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McCown wasn't great against the Vikings but he wasn't bad either. Other than his pass at the end of regulation I didn't see any plays that made me scratch my head. If the Bears defense had been awful yesterday Cutler's errors could have cost the Bears. Fortunately they didn't. The issue the Bears have had is they don't have any margin of error with their defense. Ball security is very important. McCown produced at levels better than Cutler (score on more possessions and his points per possession is higher) and protected the ball. Very few have argued that talent wise McCown is better but the offense was playing with great pace and were very efficient with him as QB. Hopefully Cutler will be at the top of his game next week.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:42 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
It's not a 100% strawman. There are people who will hate Cutler no matter what.


But its applied to too many


Of course. There are idiots and extremists in every situation.

Its a higher percentage than the normal margin of error for crazy


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:16 pm 
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badrogue17 wrote:
Right there. There's no way you can predict that. He was just as likely to keep posting 90 plus ratings .


If you're the head coach, you are paid to predict those things. And you predict them by how the opposing defenses look on tape (the ones you've played and the one coming up), the limitations of your QB, and how likely the next opponent is to take advantage of them.


Nas wrote:
McCown wasn't great against the Vikings but he wasn't bad either. Other than his pass at the end of regulation I didn't see any plays that made me scratch my head.


But look at that drive chart. It's not good, not at all, and it might be the best game Minnesota played on defense all year.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:20 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Don Tiny wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Is it okay if I truly wasn't that impressed with the way Cutler played?


That's fine.

That doesn't make him bad or McCown good though ... to whomever would prefer to subscribe to that fiction.


I think the only fiction here is Cutler starting makes the Bears appreciably better than when McCown does. I don't think there's enough evidence to suggest the Bears are in better hands with him, so why mess with Mccowns groove at this crucial point in the season. It's like pinch hitting for someone in the middle of a 0-2 count.


Hate to ask you to read minds, but why do you think Trestman is playing Cutler instead of McCown?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:22 pm 
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Bucky Chris wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Don Tiny wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Is it okay if I truly wasn't that impressed with the way Cutler played?


That's fine.

That doesn't make him bad or McCown good though ... to whomever would prefer to subscribe to that fiction.


I think the only fiction here is Cutler starting makes the Bears appreciably better than when McCown does. I don't think there's enough evidence to suggest the Bears are in better hands with him, so why mess with Mccowns groove at this crucial point in the season. It's like pinch hitting for someone in the middle of a 0-2 count.


Hate to ask you to read minds, but why do you think Trestman is playing Cutler instead of McCown?


Cutler is more talented? He wants his word to mean something to his players?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:26 pm 
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His word meaning something, is probably somewhat true. However, I think if he really wanted Josh, he could have benched Jay after the second pick and players wouldn't hold it against him.

Jay certainly has more talent on paper... but having more talent doesn't exactly mean he should start over a hot player (especially since Jay probably wasn't 100%, ecven). I'm not sure that's it. It could be.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:26 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Bucky Chris wrote:
Hate to ask you to read minds, but why do you think Trestman is playing Cutler instead of McCown?


Cutler is more talented? He wants his word to mean something to his players?


Either or both of those, and it could be a directive from Emery as well. Or a joint decision to fully evaluate him before making a decision for next year. To me, he gives you the best chance to go 3-0 and maybe even win in the playoffs, but, there could be other factors as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:28 pm 
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24_Guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
Bucky Chris wrote:
Hate to ask you to read minds, but why do you think Trestman is playing Cutler instead of McCown?


Cutler is more talented? He wants his word to mean something to his players?


Either or both of those, and it could be a directive from Emery as well. Or a joint decision to fully evaluate him before making a decision for next year. To me, he gives you the best chance to go 3-0 and maybe even win in the playoffs, but, there could be other factors as well.


I think he gives you the best chance to go 3-0 too. I'm not sure they need much more on him to make a decision but that could be it too.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:53 am 
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Bucky Chris wrote:

Hate to ask you to read minds, but why do you think Trestman is playing Cutler instead of McCown?


Well he may very well think Cutler gives them the best chance to win. Also, if they already plan to sign him/franchise him, benching him for McCown will make the decision to bring Cutler back look silly. Like he's not good enough to beat out our street QB, but we're going to sign him for millions of dollars anyway.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:03 am 
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24_Guy wrote:
Leash and Vegan, you are both reasonable about this, I agree. Let me demonstrate my case by using what I think is the critical game in the argument - the Minnesota game. That's the game that I believe Cutler would have won. That's the game where, on this board and everywhere else, I was told "it wasn't McCown's fault!" and "Trestman lost that game!"

Here's a breakdown of the Bears drives in that game. Mind you, Minnesota has the 31st ranked defense.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=331201016

3-and-out, punt
1 first-down, punt
INT, called back due to offsides. Perhaps McCown knew he had a free play. Don't know.
54-yard drive, FG

Punt
58-yard drive, FG
Punt

TD to Jeffery, 60 YAC
TD - pop-fly to Jeffery at the goal-line, very similar to the pass Cutler is being chided for

Punt
Fumble on Bears 19 - Turnover
Punt
Drive starts with :20, ball moves 2 yards, FG miss from 66

McCown fumble, recovered by Bears, punt
24-yard drive, missed FG

That's 7 punts. 7. 2 FGs. Two TD's largely due to Jeffery's abilities.
A turnover deep in Bears territory, and two others that were cancelled.
He was 2 for 10 on 3rd down.
The Bears were never in the red zone. All game. Not once.
McCown was sacked 4 times. I don't think Cutler has any 4 sack games this year. McCown is supposed to be better at evading pressure.

Again, all this against the 31st ranked defense.

How can you tell me "it wasn't McCown's fault!!", given that evidence??

How can you look at that performance, and say you want McCown to start on the road against Cleveland, who has a much better defense than Minnesota? How does this game show the offense moves the ball better with McCown?

McCown's throwing distance is limited. Not just down the field, but to the sidelines. When he has to throw to the sidelines, watch how long it takes for the ball to get there. Trestman has to limit the calls because of this. Other defenses, besides Dallas, can adjust to that.

Cutler had 2 regrettable turnovers yesterday, but still hung 31 points on a pretty decent defense despite them. The Cleveland defense held New England in check all day the week before, until a bad pass-interference call and an onside-kick recovery. And that was against Tom Brady.

I don't believe in momentum or hot hands or grooves. What happened against Dallas was not going to carry over to Cleveland. Cutler gave the Bears the best chance to win that game.

Where am I going wrong?


It may very well be the case that McCown restricts Trestman's playbook because of his limited arm, I'm just not astute enough to sense these things from watching the game. Look, I don't want to go back into each game and pick apart TD throws or long gains or whatnot. Let's just concede all stats: Cutler threw along TD to Jeffery in Cleveland, and McCown did the same against Dallas, end of story. It comes down to results, and so far based on the split records, it would seem the Bears are more or less as likely to win with Cutler as they are with McCown.

That there is minimal difference between the two in terms of results bolsters McCown's case more so than Cutler, because McCown is healthier, was taking starting reps in practice, etc. Therefore it seemed odd to replace him with a gimpy Cutler, in the middle of a playoff race, when the likelihood of winning doesn't chance much, if at all, when he starts. That's how I see it, but obviously Trestman believes winning chances are maximized with Cutler behind center.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:05 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
It's not a 100% strawman. There are people who will hate Cutler no matter what.


But its applied to too many


I think what some people are calling "hate" is really nothing more than disagreement with those who would keep insisting that he is an elite quarterback in spite of the fact he has never played like one.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:17 am 
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Bucky Chris wrote:
It's not always the case, but in this situation there really does seem to be a clear divide. You either like him, or hate him (and his face, and his personality, and his wife, and his shoulder twitch and his radio show).
No, you are just sensitive about him for some reason.

Pointing out obvious truths about Jay Cutler isn't hating him. He's the 10th-15th best quarterback in the league.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:26 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
He's the 10th-15th best quarterback in the league.


And in spite of the constant drumbeat on WSCR between 1 and 6 each day, signing him certainly isn't something "you have to do". In fact, it's quite likely to result in a disaster for your franchise. Some people are so obsessed with what McCown might get paid next year, they ignore that Cutler is going to get Tony Romo money. And neither Romo or Cutler is much more likely to win a Super Bowl than McCown.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:27 am 
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Can we stop rewriting the history on McCown? He was better over a short time period than Jay Cutler ever was or probably ever will be. We can draw up all these hypothetical situations where Cutler leads us to undefeated records but it's just not consistent with the large amount of knowledge we have on him. Also, we really need to stop blaming McCown for the Vikings loss. Cutler would be given a pass if the coach did as poor of a job as that.

It's ok if you think McCown was a fluke. It probably was. It's ok if you think Cutler is going to have a better career going forward. He probably will. However, to think that Hypothetical Jay Cutler would be performing on the level of Aaron Rodgers is not just wrong but also completely indefensible unless we are literally just making things up. McCown went out and outperformed Cutler and probably deserved a chance to come back down. It is a very real possibility that McCown could have continued his play all the way to the playoffs. If we want to play the Hypothetical Josh McCown game, we can say that benching McCown cost the Bears the Super Bowl. Now, that is stupid, because we live in a world where it's easy to say things like that.

I'd love to hear some predictions on the rest of the season though. You'd have to imagine that Cutler leads us at least to the Super Bowl right? I mean, he would have outperformed the 3rd most productive quarterback in the league if he was playing. Can we start planning real trips to the Super Bowl, or are those hypothetical too?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:31 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Can we stop rewriting the history on McCown? He was better over a short time period than Jay Cutler ever was or probably ever will be. We can draw up all these hypothetical situations where Cutler leads us to undefeated records but it's just not consistent with the large amount of knowledge we have on him. Also, we really need to stop blaming McCown for the Vikings loss. Cutler would be given a pass if the coach did as poor of a job as that.

It's ok if you think McCown was a fluke. It probably was. It's ok if you think Cutler is going to have a better career going forward. He probably will. However, to think that Hypothetical Jay Cutler would be performing on the level of Aaron Rodgers is not just wrong but also completely indefensible unless we are literally just making things up. McCown went out and outperformed Cutler and probably deserved a chance to come back down. It is a very real possibility that McCown could have continued his play all the way to the playoffs. If we want to play the Hypothetical Josh McCown game, we can say that benching McCown cost the Bears the Super Bowl. Now, that is stupid, because we live in a world where it's easy to say things like that.

I'd love to hear some predictions on the rest of the season though. You'd have to imagine that Cutler leads us at least to the Super Bowl right? I mean, he would have outperformed the 3rd most productive quarterback in the league if he was playing. Can we start planning real trips to the Super Bowl, or are those hypothetical too?


It's quite likely someone gives him that chance next season. There's no such thing as a "replacement level quarterback" and McCown has shown he is capable of playing as well as or better than most quarterbacks, at least over a limited stretch.

I'm not against bringing back Cutler either. I just think, for the money it's going to cost, you won't get value. He's going to put you in football hell.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:39 am 
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I sat by one of these penises at the Fox n Hound Sunday. Guy claims to be a Bears fan, but sat there mumbling the entire game about why McCown should start. Even after TDs, rather than cheering, he would STILL be saying things like "McCown would have them up by 20 right now."

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:42 am 
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redskingreg wrote:
I sat by one of these penises at the Fox n Hound Sunday. Guy claims to be a Bears fan, but sat there mumbling the entire game about why McCown should start. Even after TDs, rather than cheering, he would STILL be saying things like "McCown would have them up by 20 right now."


Just tell Rick to be quiet next time.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:42 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
It's not a 100% strawman. There are people who will hate Cutler no matter what.


But its applied to too many


I think what some people are calling "hate" is really nothing more than disagreement with those who would keep insisting that he is an elite quarterback in spite of the fact he has never played like one.


I love him more than anyone, I wouldn't classify him as elite.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:43 am 
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redskingreg wrote:
"McCown would have them up by 20 right now."
That seems to be a common theme among all Bears fans. The only difference is if it's McCown or Cutler playing.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:47 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
It's not a 100% strawman. There are people who will hate Cutler no matter what.


But its applied to too many


I think what some people are calling "hate" is really nothing more than disagreement with those who would keep insisting that he is an elite quarterback in spite of the fact he has never played like one.

No, Im not talking about people like that. Im talking people who never got over the injury in the NFC championship game

Those people are out there and they are more than just a random few


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:50 am 
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Bucky Chris wrote:
redskingreg wrote:
I sat by one of these penises at the Fox n Hound Sunday. Guy claims to be a Bears fan, but sat there mumbling the entire game about why McCown should start. Even after TDs, rather than cheering, he would STILL be saying things like "McCown would have them up by 20 right now."


Just tell Rick to be quiet next time.


Rick also said he would root for my team if the Bears lose. I asked him if he's mocking my team? No, he thought Art Monk played for the Chiefs. Dingus couldn't tell the difference between Washington and KC

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:50 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
It's not a 100% strawman. There are people who will hate Cutler no matter what.


But its applied to too many


I think what some people are calling "hate" is really nothing more than disagreement with those who would keep insisting that he is an elite quarterback in spite of the fact he has never played like one.

No, Im not talking about people like that. Im talking people who never got over the injury in the NFC championship game

Those people are out there and they are more than just a random few

Like everything else there is a significant number people on the other side who have unconditional passionate love for him like Bucky Chris or the 670 staff.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:16 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
It's not a 100% strawman. There are people who will hate Cutler no matter what.


But its applied to too many


I think what some people are calling "hate" is really nothing more than disagreement with those who would keep insisting that he is an elite quarterback in spite of the fact he has never played like one.

No, Im not talking about people like that. Im talking people who never got over the injury in the NFC championship game

I was more concerned with his shitty play in the NFC championship game before he was injured than anything that happened after.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:22 am 
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Jay Cutler has never really done anything to quiet the critics though. Do you really hate him for simply pointing out the facts of his time in Chicago?

At best, he's been a borderline top 10 quarterback, and often times he's been borderline top 15 and outplayed or matched by quarterbacks who aren't that good either.

People hate Tony Romo no matter what. People hate Philip Rivers no matter what. We've seen them both perform at elite levels for seasons.

I mean, Jay Cutler went to a pro bowl, and the Broncos sent him packing. :lol: I don't think "haters" like me are all that off about the career of Jay Cutler. I hope he proves me wrong.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:25 am 
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This issue is that people aren't happy he has been a borderline top 10 QB. I think to expect significantly more out of him was incorrect. I'm happy that he has been a borderline top 10 QB.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:26 am 
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I find it amusing that Bernstein has gone from saying it is quite reasonable to debate allocating $20m to Cutler next year (when there are so many holes) to basically saying the Bears HAVE to re-sign him for continuity, and yesterday he pretty much said they can find better backups than McCown.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:29 am 
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Jaw Breaker wrote:
I find it amusing that Bernstein has gone from saying it is quite reasonable to debate allocating $20m to Cutler next year (when there are so many holes) to basically saying the Bears HAVE to re-sign him for continuity, and yesterday he pretty much said they can find better backups than McCown.


McCown's play changed the negotiation a ton. The Bears now have a helluva lot more leverage than they did before. They don't have to pay Jay as much now. So it's not that crazy for Bernstein's opinion to change. Even though I fought it, had I have been forced to put contract numbers on what the Bears should give Jay, it's gone down a LOT, even since the beginning of the season.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:33 am 
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Bucky Chris wrote:
This issue is that people aren't happy he has been a borderline top 10 QB. I think to expect significantly more out of him was incorrect. I'm happy that he has been a borderline top 10 QB.
The complaints aren't very large when he is a top 10 QB. As I said, you are just sensitive.

Borderline top 10 isn't something to celebrate either especially at his age.

I mean, is it too much to ask to want Cutler to outshine Andy Dalton and Alex Smith?

Cutler is currently 12th in passer rating, and even if we cut out McCown and Bradford who Cutler is probably better than, we then have to add in Brady, Kapernick, Stafford, and Cam Newton as better players, and maybe Ryan and Luck.

A logical case can be made that this year Cutler isn't a top 15 quarterback. I know, injuries and all that stuff.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:36 am 
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When I stop to think about it, I can't name many top-tier Chicago athletes that I do personally like. I guess I like Jonathan Toews because he's been an integral part of two championships, I like his style of play and wears the "C" with both dignity and significance. But I don't know him personally, nothing beyond what I've seen postgame or with some little segment geared to make him look/sound good.

The last three Chicago athletes I personally liked (in no specific order) were Joe Carter, Ron Harper, and Mark Carrier. I knew them personally and liked them. There are those who's game/style-of-play that I didn't like, but it wasn't personal. There were those who's game I admired but as people didn't necessarily care for (i.e., Dennis Rodman).

The irony of the strawman in this argument is that it was Dan McNeil who used to suggest that it was "nice to like your guys" and it was the other Dan who used to emphatically state that "liking them" didn't matter, shouldn't matter.

So why is it being tossed around now?

There are those who feel the need to tell you what you're experiencing, why it should be enjoyed, the specifics to savor. They also like to explain what you aren't experiencing, why it is hollow, and whatever negatives they can imagine. They are the equivalent of people who watch a parade on DVR and then look to offer a critique.

Then there are the rest of us. We're at the parade because we want to be and we enjoy parades. Doesn't mean we have to like everything but if we don't then that's on us.

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