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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:12 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
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Brick, I get it but he just gets an automatic pass like it isnt even possible. Everyone else is under review except him.
I don't think that is true. He probably gets the same treatment as Greg Maddux gets.

It's almost always impossible to prove a negative but there are a few players that have valid reasons to believe that the negative is true. Frank and Griffey have those reasons more than others.


Yeah the non-power pitchers are getting the same treatment.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:15 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
If you don't understand why Frank deserves a different level of suspicion than just about anyone else from his era you simply don't want to understand why that is.

Yes, there is a chance he was on something. It's almost always impossible to prove a negative but you can be pretty confident in Frank and Griffey.

Is this a serious post?

What is the difference between Frank and Bagwell?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:16 pm 
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City of Fools wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Jeff Bagwell was always big. Why doesnt he get the Frank treatment?


I have loved the Astros since 1985. What this qualifies me to say, among other things is Bagwell, while a favorite of mine, WAS NOT always big. Far from it. Far Far from it.

Except I just posted a picture of his rookie year and his arms were huge


Why are you always wrong?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:17 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Image
Image

Is that supposed to support the case he used?

You cant see any of his body in the first one


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:18 pm 
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Can someone here honestly say his forearms arent fucking huge there?



Im not saying Frank did ROIDS. Im saying its unfair to Bagwell to assume.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:19 pm 
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I don't know who's Maddux stories are worse, Rozner's or Bernstein's discussion of his "preternatural abilities". :roll:

I really liked Maddux, but I better turn this crap off before they start to infect that.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:20 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
If you don't understand why Frank deserves a different level of suspicion than just about anyone else from his era you simply don't want to understand why that is.

Yes, there is a chance he was on something. It's almost always impossible to prove a negative but you can be pretty confident in Frank and Griffey.

Is this a serious post?

What is the difference between Frank and Bagwell?
I'm not going to play the "What about this guy to this guy" game.

If there is as good of evidence he didn't with Bagwell as there is with Frank then there is no difference.

We've gone down this road before. You reject any evidence that Frank is any different than anyone else unless they tested positive. If you want to think that there is an equal chance that Sammy Sosa and Frank Thomas were juicing go ahead.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:21 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:22 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Im saying its unfair to Bagwell to assume.


IIRC, Bagwell(like Piazza) had a few friends and training methods that were "shady". And then grew like Popeye.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:23 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
If you don't understand why Frank deserves a different level of suspicion than just about anyone else from his era you simply don't want to understand why that is.

Yes, there is a chance he was on something. It's almost always impossible to prove a negative but you can be pretty confident in Frank and Griffey.

Is this a serious post?

What is the difference between Frank and Bagwell?
I'm not going to play the "What about this guy to this guy" game.

If there is as good of evidence he didn't with Bagwell as there is with Frank then there is no difference.

We've gone down this road before. You reject any evidence that Frank is any different than anyone else unless they tested positive. If you want to think that there is an equal chance that Sammy Sosa and Frank Thomas were juicing go ahead.

Yeah, I never said or implied anything close to that. I said there is as much actual proof for each guy which is the truth.


I just think Bagwell is getting screwed. I guess he should have vocalized his oppositiion to Steroids.



I dont think Frank used. Although good dolphins theory about playing in two of the biggest steroid environments ever is interesting.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:23 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Image


He was probably also like 19 in this pic. I would hope that a professional athlete put on more muscle as they got into their prime.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:24 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Image

Image

Looks pretty similar to me.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:25 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Im saying its unfair to Bagwell to assume.


IIRC, Bagwell(like Piazza) had a few friends and training methods that were "shady". And then grew like Popeye.

Look at the rookie picture. Guy had ridiculous arms from the begginning


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:26 pm 
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RPB is doin work right now.

:salut:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:26 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
I don't know who's Maddux stories are worse, Rozner's or Bernstein's discussion of his "preternatural abilities". :roll:

I really liked Maddux, but I better turn this crap off before they start to infect that.

They should just interview Greg Maddux rather than interviewing Barry Rozner as Greg Maddux.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:27 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Yeah, I never said or implied anything close to that. I said there is as much actual proof for each guy which is the truth.
Haven't you said before you think Frank probably juiced?
rogers park bryan wrote:
I just think Bagwell is getting screwed. I guess he should have vocalized his oppositiion to Steroids.
Of course he should have.
rogers park bryan wrote:
I dont think Frank used. Although good dolphins theory about playing in two of the biggest steroid environments ever is interesting.
It really isn't unless you think somehow that Frank needed football to discover that steroids exist.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:27 pm 
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Whoa, Score Commercial Voice Girl is actually a full-contact stripper in Chicago Heights? She said "come see me" and I'd know that voice anywhere

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:28 pm 
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Alright, IMO Bagwell and Thomas are both slam dunk hall of famers and there is not any shred of evidence on cheating to keep either of them out.


Biggio is NOT a hall of famer, imo. No points for hanging around for milestones.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:29 pm 
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you guys are fighting a losing battle. take it to the voters. I'm just telling you why they voted that way. one guy had suspicions, the other did not, other than the fact that "you can't trust anybody."

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:31 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Yeah, I never said or implied anything close to that. I said there is as much actual proof for each guy which is the truth.
Haven't you said before you think Frank probably juiced?

If I did it was a joke. My issue has always been people acting like its a FACT.

rogers park bryan wrote:
I dont think Frank used. Although good dolphins theory about playing in two of the biggest steroid environments ever is interesting.
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
It really isn't unless you think somehow that Frank needed football to discover that steroids exist.

So you think going to a school and playing college football during a time when steroids were rampant is meaningless in this conversation?

If so, we just disagree


Last edited by rogers park bryan on Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:31 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
Image

Image

Looks pretty similar to me.


"Pretty similar" must mean different things to you & I.

Each has a body type that looks like muscle could be hung on them, but Frank's already considerably larger there & has a much, much larger frame.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:32 pm 
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Frank's thigh there is bigger than my chest circumference. by a long shot. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:36 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
Image

Image

Looks pretty similar to me.


"Pretty similar" must mean different things to you & I.

Each has a body type that looks like muscle could be hung on them, but Frank's already considerably larger there & has a much, much larger frame.

What does frame have to do with it?


They both look to have smaller arms than they did in their career. And they both had huge arms from early in their MLB career until the end.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:38 pm 
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This is all really stupid anyway. The pictures lie.


You could look at pictures of me from eight years apart on virtually any human and make a case there is a large difference.


I could be wrong. I just think Bagwell should be in. I hope Im allowed to have that opinion.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:40 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
Image

Image

Looks pretty similar to me.


This one's easy. They're both hunks. Check please.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0igLdIH-Zc

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:43 pm 
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I wouldn't be surprised if there was some underground "dirt" on Bagwell that no one in the media is/was willing to report. The rumors on him go way back...a wink wink nudge nudge kind of thing. Helton is another guy like that.

Otherwise his numbers are definitely HOF worthy.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:43 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
What does frame have to do with it?


They both look to have smaller arms than they did in their career. And they both had huge arms from early in their MLB career until the end.


Their arms are smaller, but Bagwell didn't/doesn't look to have much defined muscle at the start, certainly not arms, unlike Frank. And Frank's legs are mammoth compared to Bagwell.

Frame(size) has a lot to do with it from scouting perspective, or so I've been told. How much (and type of) muscle can reasonably be built/held is something that is a key factor for certain types/positions. And the body frame is an indicator for it. Especially "power" positions.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:46 pm 
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I respect your opinion, Regular.

I just think Bagwell is getting fucked over and there its weird because I dont believe he ever even appeared on any lists. (Most of the guys who are being kept out have at least one of those lists to their name)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:47 pm 
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FWIW, here is Bagwell's take



Jeff Bagwell tires of steroids talk
Former Astros slugger addresses accusations, physical appearance, Hall of Fame
Updated: December 29, 2010, 12:09 PM ET
By Jerry Crasnick | ESPN.com
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Jeff Bagwell
AP Photo/Gene J. Puskar
Jeff Bagwell believes lifting weights like a bodybuilder shortened his career.
Writer's note: Jeff Bagwell first denied using performance-enhancing drugs during a 2004 interview with the Houston Chronicle. The passage of time hasn't altered his words or softened his emotions on the topic.

Bagwell, to this day, asserts that he never touched steroids or other illegal performance-enhancers. Although he bulked up considerably during his 15 seasons in Houston, Bagwell attributes his more muscular look to an almost obsessive weight-lifting regimen that he now considers a mistake: The added heft contributed greatly to the shoulder problems that forced him to retire in 2005 at age 37.


Bagwell bound for Cooperstown
Jeff Bagwell may not be a first-ballot Hall of Famer, but he'll be enshrined someday soon. Story »

Still, as Bagwell makes his first appearance on the Hall of Fame ballot, he knows that some media members and fans will be skeptical of his claims. In the current climate, almost all sluggers from his era are considered guilty until proven innocent. Bagwell has never been linked to performance-enhancers beyond hearsay and innuendo, yet he lives under the same cloud of suspicion as players who have failed drug tests, lied before Congress or admitted to steroid use.

"It irritated the crap out of me when I first heard people say it,'' Bagwell said. "It still irritates me. But it is what it is. You can't run from it. You can't hide from it, and if somebody wants to believe something, that's fine.''

Bagwell, never one to refrain from comment, offered the following thoughts on baseball and the steroid issue in an interview with ESPN.com:

"I never used [steroids], and I'll tell you exactly why: If I could hit between 30 and 40 home runs every year and drive in 120 runs, why did I need to do anything else? I was pretty happy with what I was doing, and that's the God's honest truth. All of a sudden guys were starting to hit 60 or 70 home runs and people were like, 'Dude, if you took [PEDs], you could do it too.' And I was like, 'I'm good where I'm at. I just want to do what I can do.'

"I wasn't trying to do anything crazy. I hit six homers in the minor leagues. Six home runs. I hit 15, 18 and 21 in Houston, and then I hit 39 in 1994 when I started working with Rudy Jaramillo and he helped me to understand my swing and I actually learned how to hit. And I was like, 'I don't need anything more. I'm good.' When I walked on the field I thought I was the best player on the field, and I didn't need anything more than that. It was never an ego thing with me, and I think at some point, it became ego to some people.

"I know a lot of people are saying, 'His body got bigger.' Well, if you're eating 30 pounds of meat every single day and you're working out and bench pressing, you're going to get bigger. You can go to every single trainer and they'll say, 'He was the first here and last to leave, and that dude worked his ass off.'

"The heavy lifting all started in 1995. I was going through a divorce and I came to spring training, and I thought everything was good. Then I got to spring training and I'll never forget it: Mike Hampton looked at me and said, 'Dude, what's wrong with you? You're so skinny, you look like you're on crack.' I look back at the stats and they weren't bad [21 homers, 87 RBIs and a .290 batting average in 114 games]. But I told myself, 'I'm never going to have somebody say that to me again.' I said, 'I'm going to find a trainer and get strong.'

"I found a trainer and I started lifting weights, and he told me, 'You have to stop doing [those lifts] behind your neck because it's going to hurt your arm. It's not normal.' And I said, "But it feels so good.' And he said, 'Yeah, I get it. I'm a bodybuilder, but you're a baseball player.' It felt so good that I kept doing it. But if you keep doing stuff like that, all it's going to do is hurt you.

"In the long run, that's my regret. If you ask Dave Labossiere, our trainer when I played in Houston, I would come to spring training every year and I couldn't throw the ball three feet. I played 3½ years in the most utter pain you could imagine just trying to throw a baseball.

"The lifting made my shoulders and everything bigger, but I was bodybuilding-lifting instead of lifting for baseball, and that was totally my fault. If I have one regret, that's it, because I think it shortened my career.

"If you played in my era and hit any home runs, you know people are going to sit there and say something. It's just the state of the game now. The one thing I don't understand is how people can talk about the era I played in and make it sound as if there weren't any great players in the 1990s and 2000s. That doesn't make any sense. Are you telling me that there were great players in the '30s, '40s and '50s, but there weren't any great players in the '90s and 2000s? I mean, come on. That's crazy.

"You know how I feel about it, truthfully? If a guy is making the minimum salary and he looks across the field and thinks he has to take something to stay in the big leagues, I have no problem with that. You're trying to do the best you can. As baseball players, we don't have an earning power for years to come. If you have to do something for your family, I have no problem with that.

"Now, if you're the best player in game and you start taking stuff? I still don't have that big a problem with it. I know you took it, but it doesn't matter.

"People can say anything they want about Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire, but it was fun to watch. Barry Bonds is the best player I've ever seen. He would stand on first base and say, 'If they throw that pitch again, I'm taking them deep.' Then guess what? The next at-bat, he would take them deep. He could steal a base anytime he wanted to steal a base, and he was always safe. I've only seen three or four people who could ever do that.

"No matter what anybody says about Barry or Mark, who I love to death, they were great players and they were fun to watch. When you get older and stuff happens, maybe you think, 'I have to do something now [to compete].'

"I look at Andy Pettitte, and I can say this because it's documented. Andy came out and said, 'Listen, my elbow was killing me. I was making $12-13 million a year, and they told me it was going to help me and all I wanted to do was pitch.' I mean, how can you even argue that? That's not a performance enhancer. That's just a guy who wanted to get healthy. How do you separate 'I want to get healthy' from 'I'm trying to get better because I don't feel like I'm the same player I used to be'?

"I'll never forget the time that Andy was pitching in New York and he was throwing about 79 mph, and he went six innings and allowed one run, and he was basically crying coming off the field because his arm hurt so bad. I'll play on the same team with that dude every single day of the week, because all he wanted to do was compete. I have no problems with Andy Pettitte doing what he did.

"Here's my whole thing when people ask me about the Hall of Fame: Would I be honored to death to be in the Hall of Fame? Of course I would. But it doesn't consume me at all. I loved every single part of what I did as a baseball player. But I've got my kids, I've got my family, and getting in the Hall of Fame isn't going to affect my life one way or the other. And it won't make me feel any better about my career.

"I'm so sick and tired of all the steroids crap, it's messed up my whole thinking on the subject. I hate to even use this word, but it's become almost like a 'buzz kill' for me.

"So much has gone on in the last eight or nine years, it's kind of taken some of the valor off it for me. If I ever do get to the Hall of Fame and there are 40 guys sitting behind me thinking, 'He took steroids,' then it's not even worth it to me. I don't know if that sounds stupid. But it's how I feel in a nutshell.''


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:48 pm 
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Image

The image seems photoshopped.

What base is Frank playing?
Where and how is the "tag" being made?

Not looking to get in on the "did he or didn't he" debate but I don't think the card photos prove much.

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