If he roided up (more) and broke the record instead of the other guys, sure.

I'd be surprised to learn that he never did steroids or some other substance that he knew would not be detected by 1990s-level testing.

He developed at a place that I'm sure knew what they were doing in that regard.

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You know me like that.

So you think he did steroids?

Why?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Yup.

I said it in the post you quoted. I'd be surprised to learn that he did not. So, I tend to believe that he probably did.

Because he developed in an SEC football program and I know for a fact that even small-time high school football programs were using in the mid-to-late-80s, so I also believe it was happening at SEC football factories.

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You know me like that.

Frank Thomas?

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

He played for the White Sox, stuff like this does not matter.

I am sure he refused the steroids that basically everyone else around him was doing.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

That's pretty weak though. Are you saying baseball had yet to discover steroids in the late 80s? The fact that he played 1 year of SEC football is meaningless. As you even said here, high schools already had steroid use. Do you really think you had to play football to find or learn about them?

By the same logic, Greg Maddux probably used steroids.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Come on. It's not like that. That is the national perception too. This is the same stuff as Greg Maddux. People don't think he used steroids because there are valid reasons to believe he didn't.

To counter your point, I believe Konerko probably used steroids. Your same "White Sox fans are blind homers" point was brought up about him, and then a good portion of the responses were "Konerko is probably a steroid user".

The only current White Sox I'm confident isn't using steroids is Adam Dunn, and that is because he sucks.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I wouldn't rule that out either. And I certainly wouldn't rule Griffey out. He broke down in the way that steroid guys often do.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

So your basic argument is that Frank Thomas used steroids because he was around a lot of people that were using and condoned their use.

Well, so was Greg Maddux so by that logic he so he must have used too.

The big difference with Griffey is that he constantly got hurt in the prime of his career. Big Frank had the arm issue in 2001, but he only missed time here and there before that. He had never missed full/ 1/2 seasons. As he got older, he got hurt more which tends to happen naturally, especially to guys as big as him.



Konerko probably used something, but I don't think he does anymore. If he did, he would have come back faster and performed better (especially last year) after his wrist and back issues over the last few seasons.

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There is a difference here. Some are saying that Frank probably used steroids, as in it's more likely he did than he didn't.

As I've said all along, it's virtually impossible to prove a negative. I wouldn't rule out that Frank Thomas is a Russian spy either. I just don't think it is likely at all and there are others who are far more likely to be Russian spies because there is actually a reason to believe they are.

Now, if Dr. Kenneth Noisewater also thinks Maddux probably used steroids then I guess he just goes under the assumption that every MLB player that has played since the 80s has. I think that is more acceptable of an answer though I doubt it is very accurate.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Are you saying the likelihood Frank was a Russian spy is greater than the likelihood he used performance-enhancing drugs?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

No.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Okay. There is circumstantial evidence beyond his giant numbers that makes it quite reasonable for one to question Frank. There's the fact that he played in an SEC football program where "strength training" and "nutrition" and everything for which those terms are used as a euphemism obviously played a big part. We know this is a man who was famously obsessive about his numbers. Is it reasonable to believe he wouldn't do everything he could to produce those numbers? Did he come to Auburn where coaches and older players undoubtedly showed him how to get bigger and stronger and say, "Nah, I don't do that."? Frank strikes me as more of a follower than that. And I find it hard to believe he would risk slipping down the depth chart by not doing what his coaches suggested.

I don't know what Frank did or didn't do. I'd like to think he played clean. But it's not like suspicions about him are completely unfounded.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

He played 1 season and had 3 catches. Let's not act like he was Bo Jackson here. There were walkons who probably had better football careers than him. If he hadn't switched to baseball only, he'd be looked at a failed football player. He was buried on the depth chart. Maybe that was why. Maybe they said "If you aren't going to use steroids maybe you should just go play baseball".

As for the "do everything he could to produce those numbers" it is fairly obvious he didn't jump on the McGwire steroids bandwagon to try and hit 80 home runs in a season so I don't know if that is fair to say. Frank was much better than McGwire. Do you really think with the same training regiment he couldn't have been right there hitting that many home runs? Now, that doesn't mean that he hasn't used steroids since he was 7 years old, but clearly you are off about the fact he would do whatever it takes to produce numbers since he obviously didn't then when it would have mattered the most.

Once again, people are saying he PROBABLY did steroids. That isn't suspicion. They are saying it is likely.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

There's evidence to support the idea that he did and to support the idea that he didn't. It was the players' own union that has caused them all to be under a cloud of suspicion. I don't rule any of them out. There are guys I'm certain about. There are other about whom I'm not sure. But I wouldn't say anyone didn't with 100% certainty. That's what makes the whole thing so fucked up.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I don't think anyone is asking you to.

100% certainty is hard to reach for anything but provable facts.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

By the logic that a huge dude came out of a football factory at a time when performance-enhancing drugs were rampant in the sport, Greg Maddux used steroids?

You asked if I thought Frank Thomas used steroids and my answer is that if I had to guess yes or no, I'd guess yes. If that offends you as a Frank Thomas fan, that there are people out there that think it's possible that he wasn't clean either, then I'm sorry. But, there are people out there.

This is baseball's fault. I don't hate Frank Thomas. I enjoyed watching him play. I thought he was great. But, just because he says he didn't use them, I'm not going to just say "OK, my suspicions are satisfied".

Also, if this was really that important to him, what stopped him from walking into ESPN and saying give me a supervised drug test and broadcast the results? I'm not saying he should have done this or was obligated to in any way. But, he seems like this is the most important thing in the world to him. I'm sure there could have been union issues with that but it doesn't seem like Frank cared that much about that stuff if they were trying to rig the testing requirements as a team anyway. Just curious to me.

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You know me like that.

You phrase it in a strange way but yes, unless you are saying that baseball hadn't discovered steroids in the late 80s.
That's a cop out. There is a difference between suspicion and thinking he probably used them. Of course it's possible that Frank used steroids. I find it highly unlikely. You find it likely. You should be willing to justify exactly why you find it likely.
It's because it wouldn't have mattered. People like you would still say "HE PLAYED FOOTBALL AT AUBURN FOR 11 GAMES!". Again, you have said he probably used steroids because he played football for a year. Going to ESPN to prove he is currently clean in 1996 wouldn't change your opinion at all.

Also, as you said, fighting your own union can have consequences. They were complicit in this action at the expense of players like Frank Thomas. You want to punish him by lumping him in with people like Sosa who probably did steroids. It's just sad. It's also disingenuous to not view Greg Maddux the exact same way.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Greg Maddux came into becoming a dominating force on the mound when performance-enhancing drugs were rampant in the sport. Safe to assume he must have been using that whole time.

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Sure, baseball had "discovered" steroids by the late 80s. But I don't believe usage was rampant at that time. That's as opposed to football at it's highest levels where it has been- and continues to be to this very day- almost impossible to compete without some type of "program". Which leads us to the larger- and to me, more interesting- discussion as to why baseball has to wear the taint of PEDs while other sports where they are even more prevalent escape unscathed.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

So, it doesn't matter to you that Greg Maddux looks like a 14-year old boy and Frank Thomas is a mountain of a man? That's strange as well. The whole Greg Maddux aspect of your argument is silly. If it makes you feel better, I feel it's just as likely Kerry Wood used something as Frank Thomas. Can we rule out the Cubs/Sox thing now?



I don't know what you are talking about. I've mentioned the reasons for my suspicions over and over in this thread. That's why I find it likely. What am I not willing to justify? I have no problem being wrong if there was some way to prove that my suspicions are unfounded. But, they aren't. There is a reason to be suspicious.



Thank you for selecting my answer already but that isn't correct. If he had a negative drug test at the height of his career, it would impact my thoughts and, while I still wouldn't rule it out that he had used prior to that, I'd be less inclined to think that he had. It is sad that people get lumped in together that may not deserve it, like Frank Thomas and Kerry Wood. I feel the same way about Mark Prior - he used. I wish I was less cynical about it.

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You know me like that.

If you want to feel that way, go ahead. It's your opinion.

I think that it's less likely that he used steroids than Frank Thomas or some of the others that I mentioned.

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You know me like that.

Yeah, and Frank couldn't compete in football. If we were talking about Bo Jackson or Deion here then we'd have something. Frank had 3 career catches and was basically told "Baseball is the sport for you" by the Auburn football coaches according to Frank's HOF press conference.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

So its possible Frank used steroids. Not likely, but possible.

Then isn't it also possible that perhaps Big Frank was told to play baseball by his coaches because he wouldn't take steroids?

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The Maddux argument is not silly. You just turn down your "suspicions" on him for some reason. It's the exact same rationalizes you think are bad for Thomas.
You are using stuff at Auburn against him! You seem to feel he's been on steroids since he was a teenager.

Again, Frank was a public advocate for steroid testing at that exact time. Do you honestly think he couldn't have passed a test then?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

"For some reason"? The reason is in the post from me that you quoted.

There's no point continuing this, Rick. You asked if I think he used and I think he probably did. There are degrees of suspicion and he's not at the top but somewhere over 50%. McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, Clemens - those guys are at the top. Bagwell and like below him. Thomas somewhere below that. Maddux below him.

I guess you feel that PED use was much lower than I do. I'm glad for you. You probably enjoy the sport more than I do when I consider those things.

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You know me like that.

This is why it is a dangerous road to go down. The problem with Maddux out of high school was he was lacking in terms of physical build. He was passed on by almost all colleges because of it. 2 years later, he's in the majors and in year 3 he's pitching 20+ games pretty much every year. He was throwing 93 MPH too.

I guess he didn't play football though, so we shouldn't question how a guy lacking the physical body needed to play in the majors found one in 2 years, but a guy who was huge when he showed up at Auburn likely started them immediately.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I just think it's unfair. Frank should be celebrated for being one of the few to stand up to steroids in baseball. Maybe he pulled the biggest con job on MLB but I don't think that is likely. There would be something more than "HE PLAYED FOOTBALL FOR A YEAR".

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!