It's too bad but baseball forced us to play these games. Their lack of oversight left the fan to draw their own conclusions and our brains have been conditioned over 20 years to look at a guy and put him in the "Yeah, I think so or No, probably not" category. And once you make your determination it is difficult to go back and say "I was probably wrong" when there is no new information one way or the other to change your mind.

That's just the way it is. Too bad for Frank if he really is clean. To his credit, I think most people feel he is clean so good for him.

_________________
You know me like that.

I think that is all true, but Frank being one of the few willing to stand up at the time and say it should matter.

I just wish he had said more during the Sosa-McGwire time period, but I think it was hard to stand up to two guys who were "saving baseball" and likely would have threatened to sue him.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Frank's willingness to stand up and demand testing is compelling.

But, at that time, testing wasn't very good. Weren't there track guys at that time also saying "test me anytime" also because they knew their stuff was so good/different that they didn't have tests for it?

Again, not fair to Frank, maybe he was very earnest in his desires to be tested. But, I don't think it's proof positive that he was clean.

_________________
You know me like that.

Unfortunately yes. Now, it's basically evolved to something you have to say. Unless you are a boxer. They can say "I'm afraid of needles so no testing".
Sadly there isn't ever proof positive of being clean.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Thomas is like the worst actor ever. Everyone hated him exactly because he couldn't look at you and lie and say nice things about how much he loves you.

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

I love that Brick states how irrational RPB gets about this and proceeds to spend 3 pages debating anyone who dares to question the great Frank Thomas.

_________________

He was irrational because he went to extremes very quickly.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

People like ARod who was also in favor testing ruined it for Frank and everyone else including Greg Maddux

Ah, so steroids/HGH are what gave him the knowledge of how to pitch in such a manner that umpires would almost always adjust their own interpretation of the strike zone.

Look, I have always felt comfortable with the idea that Frank was clean as a whistle and maybe I'm a bit foolish for holding onto that belief, but just because you've got a cob in your ass about people wondering if Frank wasn't as pure as the driven snow doesn't mean your Maddux "logic" isn't pants-on-head retarded.

_________________
Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

That's the point Don Tiny. Maddux is being used to illustrate a point.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Exactly.

The biggest argument for Frank Thomas using steroids is that he was around people at Auburn that were using and/or condoning its use. So my argument is that Greg Maddux was also around people that were using and/or condoning the use of 'roids.

_________________

What was that point?

_________________
You know me like that.

The biggest argument was the man was 250 pounds of muscle with pretty good speed for a man that size that also happened to come from a sport that was known to be using PEDs.

Maddux was a 160 pound high school kid that got drafted out of high school.

Neither is evidence of anything but they are not comparable case studies.

_________________
You know me like that.

See? Frank had the size and power already. Maddux had to take something extra to dominate hitters the way he did.

_________________

If I had to pick the guy more likely to have used something, I'm picking Frank over Maddux, but you just don't know. There are all kinds of performance enhancers and they don't all result in huge muscles. Who is to say that Leo Mazzone didn't have all his pitchers on some sort of "program".

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Something had to cause him to do all that rocking, right?

I think both Frank and Maddux were 100% clean for their entire careers. The only other guy I might even entertain the thought of saying that about is Mark Buerhle.

_________________

Ah. Well good, 'cause otherwise that was a really bad thought to actually have.

I get the whole SEC football/Auburn tie in ... I don't think it has much merit, but it's the only thing I've ever heard that at least made me give brief thought to the idea of Frank playing darts with his own ass. It's specious, but not entirely implausible.

_________________
Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

Maddux didn't dominate people. He fooled them.

If Maddux was an intimidating physical specimen that blew into the league and dazzled people with his unbelievably gifted physical skills and he also played linebacker at Alabama in the mid-'80s, then it would be a decent comparison and Maddux should deserve the same level of suspicion.

But, Maddux was none of those things.

_________________
You know me like that.

Roids give you an extra inch on either side of the plate.

Unfortunately, I'd be willing to entertain that possibility also since it was really "no holds barred" back then and nothing can be ruled out.

There's probably some argument that could be made there.

But, I don't think that type of discussion/case has anything to do with why one might have suspicions about Thomas. I just think it's a bad argument.

_________________
You know me like that.

It's a myth that the big strong guys are the only ones who used steroids.

The knock on Maddux was a lack of being physically able to be a pitcher. That's why he struggled to even get college scholarship offers. The Cubs were smart enough to see that wasn't true. Two years later, he is ready to almost immediately start playing at a hall of fame level. It was more than power hitters and power pitchers that used. That is obvious from the suspensions and positive tests.

Yeah, Maddux didn't play football at Auburn. He wasn't big or strong enough. Most thought he wasn't big or strong enough for MLB either. He quickly proved everyone wrong and went on to have great longevity.

Again, this just goes to show how deep the rabbit hole is when you start to say things like "HE PLAYED AT AUBURN FOR A YEAR!". You then have to say "Maddux wasn't physical enough to play college baseball!".

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

See, I heard it led to shrinkage ....

_________________
Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

verry interesting point BRick. I like your angle!

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

From 1992 thru 1997 Maddux was 109-44, 2.10 ERA, 47 CG, with a WHIP of 0.97, and an average WAR of 8.01. All of this while making an average of 32 starts and 237 IP per year (with the strike shortened year in there). No DL time, quick recovery between starts....

That's dominating.

_________________

He did not have a dominating pitching style. I'm sorry. I thought what I had said was more clear.

_________________
You know me like that.

Fine. If you want to argue that Maddux was on steroids, I'll listen. But that's a whole different argument.

Again, you asked why someone would feel Thomas used PEDs and I laid those reasons out. They have nothing to do with why someone might think Greg Maddux used steroids because those reasons would be completely different because the two athletes and their backgrounds could not be more dissimilar.

_________________
You know me like that.

Seems like this isn't going anywhere.

I don't think Frank or Maddux did steroids. Just want to make that clear. I can make up weak reasons why for either one though.

I'm editorializing here but nationally, most people seem to accept that Frank likely didn't use steroids. However, Cubs fans seem to push harder than just about anyone against that. I wonder if it is because you watched and cheered Sammy for years and it makes you feel better that you did if Frank was dirty too.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Yeah, that's probably why.

It makes me feel better about Sammy also to think that Kerry Wood and Mark Prior probably did PEDs as well.

_________________
You know me like that.

Dr. Ken, you have dared to touch the sacred cow.

_________________

Out of curiosity, where did you expect this to go?

Did you think my 20-year-old suspicion that Frank Thomas had some artificial assistance would somehow disappear based on no additional information?

As you correctly point out, most people seem to agree with you which is why he was voted in. Why does it matter to you that some people have doubts?

_________________
You know me like that.