An Orton lead team that year might have made the playoffs, but they would not have been the #2 seed.

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If you found his comeback stats, I think they would support he's been "clutch." I also recognize the word clutch can mean a lot of different things, though.

He's been real good in the 4th quarter the last couple years. Before that, not so much, but I cant find a career rating, just year by year.

16 fourth quarter comebacks, 20 game winning drives. Sounds clutch to me.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... r=CutlJa00

Angelo could be referring to different definition of clutch. Looks like he doesn't pigeon hole being clutch as 4th quarter performance.

I'm not sure I understand your reasoning. Hindsight is a bias that diminishes any argument's strength. Using post-2009 information on Cutler to judge the merits of the 2009 trade is working backwards to prove something retroactively. All the information at the time led many to believe Cutler was at worst an on and off pro bowl QB that could lead a team to the super bowl. Orton sucks, so lets just get that out of the way.

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Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

How can you be so certain?

They were 10-5 with Cutler having an above average season.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I know you're smarter than to think that alone proves something.


Romo has more comebacks. Is he clutch?

Eli Manning, Matt Ryan, Philip Rivers....


They're ALL clutch I guess.

I'm saying that nothing has happened during the Cutler era to make it obvious the trade was a good move unless you really love the win against the 7-9 Seahawks. We can and should judge the trade based on what actually happened. If Cutler had won the Super Bowl, I'm sure you and others would rightfully be talking about how great the trade was. When you win one playoff game against a 7-9 team you have to do the same.
Yeah. So what? Let's cut him the day of the trade. Are you upset that we missed out on the Seahawks win?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

It proves he has 16 fourth quarter comebacks and 20 game winning drives. Those are two stats that I believe are relevent when discussing such an annoying term as clutch. Clutch probably isn't worth even discussing, but if we are, those 2 stats seem to be useful. They don't prove anything. But they do mean something.

4th quarter comebacks and GWD's are such overblown stats. Oh, they were down 3 points to start the 4th and were able to score in the first 2 minutes of the quarter? What a comeback!

Oh, they scored on their first possession of the 4th after being tied and then beat the team by 24? Game Winning Drive! CLUTCH!

They mean nothing without context. Its obviously partially a product of being behind often. Also, those guys are all better according to that stat.

Cutler's 4th quarter QB rating has been above 94 three times and below 73 three times (excepting 2011 for the injury)

Jay is who we thought he was. Sometimes great, sometimes awful. Never consistent.

This can be a good trade and Cutler can underwhelm at the same time. Both are true - it was the right move that didn't lead to what we rationally thought it would at the time. Are you going to rue your decision to buy a brand new Benz to replace your 1990 Camry when the Benz inexplicably breaks down after two months of normal wear and tear? It sucks but you still make that move ten times out of ten.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Which is why his teams have hovered right around 7-10 wins almost every year.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Of course you would rue that decision to buy a car that didn't perform. Every decision we ever make seems like the right one at the time. Are you saying there are no such things as bad decisions?

Was the Rick Mirer trade the right decision too? How about the Ricky Williams trade by Ditka?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

The 4th quarter stat also doesn't take into account the defense winning the game. We know that happened a lot during the Cutler era.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

cutler had better players around him this year, which resulted in some better play. Yes, they did have comebacks.

Does that make Jay a better player? Somewhat.

Anyway you cut this, it makes Angelo look like a real dumb guy for making any statements about this.

he was willing to sell out on Jay for 2 first rounders. If Angelo wants to tell me that didnt work out, then thats fine, he can stop commenting on the NFL than after that, because it's evidence of not just a bad pick, but a franchising changing mistake. His inability to find coaches, WR's and OL, further exemplify this.

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I am certain that the team would not have been 11-5 with Kyle Orton at the helm throwing passes to Brandon Manumaleuna, Chester Taylor, Devin Hester, Johnny Knox, Rasheid Davis, Devin Aromashodu, Greg Olsen, and Kellen Davis. Lots of bad in that list including Orton.

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Ok Frank Scorehead.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

The reason for getting Cutler was to make everyone around him better. Every decent QB can play well with a shit load of talent on offense. Cutler looked the same even with great talent around him.

It didn't work out the way we expected but I would make the same trade 10 times out of 10.

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Grossman took a team to the SB that featured Berrian.

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... and Orton, who was horrible as a rookie, went 10-5 too.

In terms of record, the teams with Orton/Grossman have outperformed the Cutler teams. But, Frank is certain the Bears couldn't have had the dream season of 2010 without Cutler.

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False.

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His play in the Saints game was a reason why the Bears got there. Along with his start. The point you're making kind of discredits your Cutler argument. The defense was the reason why the Bears won nearly every game for almost a decade.

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You didn't buy a car that you knew would not perform - that would be a bad decision. You bought a car that could objectively be proven to provide reliable service for a very long time.

Trading for Cutler while knowing via advanced knowledge that he'd never translate his obvious talent into sustained success would be a bad decision. Since that sort of intel was obviously not available at the time, it's invalid to use that knowledge to retroactively criticize the trade.

I don't know or remember the trades in your post. Trades or acquisitions cannot only be judged by results, they also have to be judged against the knowledge and circumstances of the time. Otherwise there really is no thinking involved in hindsight heavy proclamations: premodern scholars were wrong about geocentrism, scouts were wrong about Len Bias' life expectancy - this is all self-evident and makes for lazy thinking, to the extent thinking is involved at all.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

So it's not a bad decision if at the time you don't think it's a bad decision. Got it.
There were plenty of question marks on Cutler back then. You may not have seen them but the very fact that Denver was so quick to give up on him was one on it's own.
You don't remember the Rick Mirer trade? How old are you?
Obviously, an event like the death of a player is a different thing. I'm not sure what an incorrect scientific theory has to do with anything.

Are you honestly saying that the Cutler trade was a good trade because Jerry Angelo thought it was a good trade at the time he made it? That seems to basically mean every trade ever made was good, unless some GM is so dumb they are doing a trade they know is bad just because they like being fired.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

False. 2 TDs and 120+ yards from Thomas Jones is why the Bears won that game. The safety helped as well. Rex had a 70 rating and threw for less than 150 yards IIRC.

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Pull up the game thread or read the recap.

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GO BEARS!!!

11-26 144 yards, 1 TD, 73.2 rating.

Thomas Jones ran the ball 8 plays in a row in the 2nd quarter to give the Bears a 16-0 lead. Rex had lead them to three field goals prior.

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Rex was real good in the Seahawks game


CHI C/ATT YDS AVG TD INT SACKS
Grossman 17/31 232 7.5 2 0 1-13
Rushing Leaders