Did I say deserved to die? He died thru the consequences of his own actions. If you want to jump to conclusions and say that means he deserved to die, that is on you, Rick.


Not talking about knocking, Hank. Talking about breaking somebody's door down at 6am and not identifying himself as law enforcement.

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Who suffered the consequences in this instance? Bad law often yields bad results.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

It truly is accurate. The entire American Revolution was fought because of unjust laws. And you just told me that I should accept your opinion that someone doing something illegal is also doing something wrong. So.... stands to reason that your logic would also find fault in the American Revolution.

And you are right that this guy wasn't trying to push any type of political agenda. He just wanted to be left alone in peace to smoke his marijuana.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Are you saying the cop deserved to die?

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I wouldn't say he deserved to die. I would agree that he died as a consequence of his own actions. He wasn't blameless in his own death.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

You and I have very different worldviews. First, I don't think about things in terms of "deserve to die". Cattle die. Kinsmen die. One day you and I shall die. But your views seem to be heavily informed by arbitrary laws which you use to judge morality. I see a bunch of cops kicking in the door of a guy who is minding his own business as not much different than the kids sticking the guy up at a gas pump.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

And on that day, so will 10 page threads at the CSFMB

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That is a gross simplification of the American Revolution. The American Revolution however was not fought because of unjust laws. It had much more to do with the political structure that the English had and how the Colonies were represented and how they were taxed. Now, if you try really hard, you can say that those are "unjust laws" too but then you have basically made "laws" and "government" to be virtually the same thing.
There were certainly things done by the Americans that would be considered wrong too.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

We do have different worldviews.

I don't view a police officer serving a warrant, even in a poor manner, to be the same as a guy robbing someone at gunpoint. One is a mistake. The other is a violent, criminal action.

Then again, you base your world view on who would win if we were all put on an island killing each other so I get it.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Now you are just trying to backpedal from your previous stance. It's not a gross simplification. It's accurate. The Americans were tired of unfair taxes AND unjust laws(like saying they have to give their living quarters over to any British soldier, etc.). They broke those laws and had a revolution. No matter how you try to twist it, your logic would find the Americans at fault for starting a Revolution and not obeying the laws of their current government.

Really all I am doing is pointing out how foolish your perception of government and law is. I used the American Revolution, but really I could use a number of laws throughout history and even in contemporary society to demonstrate that being on the right side of the law doesn't always give you the moral high ground. But I do, however, accept that you are entitled to your opinions.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I think kicking in the door to a man's home is a violent criminal action. Regardless of what self-serving laws the upper classes institute allowing some to do it to others for various reasons.

And we are on an island killing each other. You just refuse see it that way.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

The American Revolution was about taxation and representation. They didn't fight it because of living quarters or British soldiers. Yes, that was a complaint, but people ALWAYS have complaints about laws. Heck, you think crystal meth and heroin should be legal. That is why it is a gross oversimplification. The same "We find laws unjust!" rationale could be used to try and overthrow the government today and at every point in the history of any society in the whole world. That's why I'm saying it's an oversimplification. There are valid reasons why the American Revolution was acceptable to me. Even though there are currently "unjust laws" I do not think that a similar revolution today would be acceptable.

I never said the bold section. In fact, I don't know if I even mentioned morals once in this discussion. I simply pointed out that he was growing a currently illegal substance. I can think that, even with the fact that it may be unfair he can't, he may have been wrong for doing it. I drank before I was 21, which was and still is illegal, but I also didn't have to pretend that what I was doing was undeniably acceptable or that I was just like a revolutionary.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Correct. And if such an attempt were successful, there would be a whole new set of laws.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Which is why the point is so dumb. Society has rules. Some laws are always unjust or incorrect to some or most people. That doesn't mean that every unjust law is comparable to the reasons why the United States asserted their independence from a foreign ruler.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Of course not. But some people might say kicking in one's door in the middle of the night over a couple of plants is more egregious than a high tax on tea.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I just don't see how you can admit that there are unjust laws, and then say people are wrong for breaking them. Seems to me that you sorta have to pick a lane there. I already have.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I wouldn't go that far, but kicking in a door is wrong to me too, unless it is an active violent situation.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

It's all relative. I think the US does a pretty good job. I'm not going to throw out the baby with the bathwater because there are some poorly worded laws on the books. We live in a country where we can vote people in to change laws if the people deem them to be unjust. We dont need bloodshed on the streets.

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It's because we don't get to pick and choose what laws we can violate without the fear of any consequence for those actions. You think the marijuana law is unjust but you also think the crystal meth and heroin law is unjust. There are others who think the drunk driving laws are unjust too but I think they'd still be wrong if they drove drunk. The current laws may be somewhat arbitrary and in other cases wrong or unjust, but selectively choosing which ones are good and bad doesn't make the situation any better and in many ways makes it worse.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I'm not taking a position on revolution one way or the other. I'm saying that I don't think its wrong for someone to smoke weed in one of the states that it's currently illegal. Just like I don't have a problem with a bookie running an illegal gambling business. I'm not saying that because those laws are oppressive, we need a revolution. It's two entirely different topics.

IIRC, you, Reason, and I are pretty much the only ones here that think all drugs should be legal. Given that, I would assume that you would agree with me that it's not inherently wrong to break a law.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

First off, I never said that. I have already specifically agreed with you that any lawbreaker must be ready to accept the consequences of breaking the law.

Second, I once again disagree(strenuously disagree?) that choosing what laws to obey and which not to makes the situation worse. In large numbers, that's how laws get repealed and social change and progress happens.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

You seem to have an issue with me thinking it is wrong though. That's the problem. You are free to your opinion. Someone else, or society in general is free to disagree with you.

You seem to be somewhat misunderstanding here. I don't think it is necessarily wrong for someone to smoke weed. However, they are breaking the law in most states, and breaking the law has at least some degree of being wrong to it. This conversation ultimately started because a person was violating a law and people were acting like the police mistakenly or incorrectly targeted him. They didn't. They were doing their job. Now, by not knocking, and doing it while he was sleeping, they did a poor job in enforcement but just because you and others, including me, think that marijuana should be legal doesn't mean that it isn't currently illegal and subject to police enforcement.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

it used to be illegal for women to vote. would it be morally wrong for them to try? its currently illegal in russia to be openly gay. is it wrong that some violate that law? i mean, it is law so there must be something wrong with being gay

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the world will always the world. your entire existence is defined by your response.

I believe this statement is wrong.

I never said or even implied that you and others shouldn't disagree with me. We both agree that we both are entitled to whatever opinions on the matter we may have.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I don't really think that is true though. Most laws are changed because of public opinion and lobbying efforts. Even marijuana reform has mostly come from information campaigns and a society that has become more progressive. That's why marijuana usage has been huge for decades but all of a sudden things have started to change and change quickly.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I don't really know what to tell you then. Civil disobedience does work. I wouldn't think that is really up for debate but then again this is the CSFMB.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I must be misreading your objections to my thoughts then.

So, you have no problem with me thinking he was wrong for violating the laws of Texas?

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

So if they sent a swat team to take down a jaywalker, would you be saying "Well, Jaywalking IS currently illegal?"


Or do we have to have some common sense about how we approach each situation?

No, I don't have a problem with it. It's your opinion. Do you have a problem with me thinking that all drugs should be legal?

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

It has worked. I don't doubt that. It's more for racial or gender related things though. It isn't really what drives a lot of the other changes. I must have missed all of these marijuana sit-ins or public marijuana events where pot smokers were getting clubbed and sprayed with hoses.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!