Those things are not "tangible". They are either based on other people's opinions or highly dependent upon teammates. What's tangible are his numbers. And to say he was better in 1998 than he was in 1987 is absurd.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Some people just love rebounding and blocks I guess. I can't get mad at you for that.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I don't think he was better in 1998 than he was in 1987, but you're wrong about MVPs, Finals MVPs, and other awards not being tangible. Of course numbers are too. But awards and titles are tangible accomplishments. To suggest otherwise is simply wrong. Weren't you an English major?





Tangible....

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Fare you well, fare you well
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Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Disagree.

Jordan's Bulls team was better than what LeBron is winning with.

You know very well awards are often based on reputation rather than accomplishment. That's what I mean by them not being "tangible". Yeah, I know the trophies he was handed are tangible items.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Rick is attempting to discredit LeBron for knowing he had a better shot at winning with Wade and Bosh. That's actually another reason LeBron is greater than Jordan. He was smart enough to be correct while Jordan wanted to do the same thing and didn't know how. He wanted to do it with Walter Davis and Charles Oakley.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I dont think there can even be an argument anymore. Pippen and Grant/Rodman are way better than Wade and Bosh/Allen

Of course the opposite is true too though. Jordan was robbed of some MVPs based on Larry and and Magic's reputation and also lost out to Chuck and Malone when he was obviously the superior player because people were sick of voting for him. That's happened with LeBron/Rose as well. And I feel confident saying every one of Jordan's All NBA selections was earned.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Jabbar was the best. He has the stats to back him up.

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favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

I don't think that is true especially when you compare it to the rest of the league.

However, wouldn't Lebron need at least 6 titles still?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I dont think so. I think if you win like 3 or 4 you've established you're a winner. Anything after that is due to the team around you.

Rick is resentful of athletes taking control of their own destinies. That's why he hates LeBron and Kain Colter.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

So then Kobe is better than Jordan too I guess.

By the end of the day today, Jordan may drop out of the top 50.

To be honest, it seems like you are choosing whatever criteria fits with what you want to say in order to have a HOT SPORTS TAKE. Lebron is a better rebounder. 3 or 4 titles are the same as 6 titles. He dominated the league while losing most of the time in the playoffs. Ray Allen, Chris Bosh, and Dwayne Wade isn't a great supporting cast compared to the rest of the league.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

If you choose the easy path then you better deliver.

So, the guy handpicks his destination teaming up with a guy who already won a ring and is also a future hall of famer, and hypothetically wins two less titles than Jordan and he's better because he can rebound and block shots better?

Lebron MUST win 6 titles to be better than Jordan to me. The same was true of Kobe.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Wade, LBJ, Bosh are better head to head against Pippen and MJ. LBJ's cast is better. Rodman doesnt belong in the discussion. The third best player on the Bulls in the second three peat was Kukoc.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

You accused RPB of this:



But it seems to me that you are the one actually doing that.

By your stated criteria, are we agreeing that Bill Russell is the greatest player ever?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

What? Hot sports take? What does that even mean?

Im not a huge NBA guy. Just giving my opinion.

You've framed my statements in the worst possible light.

3 or 4 titles is not Six, but then we have to talk Robert Horry vs Olujawon argument.

LeBrons cast is not as good as Jordan's was at the time. The laughable argument used to be that Bosh and Wade were better than Pippen and Grant/Rodman. Now that has moved to "well compared to the rest of the league..."


I find it interesting that you accuse me of changing the parameters to fit my arguement, as I am the one who is open to either side of the argument and you are the one who made up his mind 3 years ago and has been trying to justify it, by any means neccessary, ever since.

That's not true at all. Rodman was much more valuable to that team than Kukoc was. They needed an all time great rebounder/post defender much more than they needed another decent scorer. Rodman gave Malone fits and was a huge reason the Bulls beat the Jazz twice.

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I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Wow, this all very wrong.

LeBron cant be better than Jordan. You decided that years ago.


I cant believe you're actually arguing number of titles. I guess Scott Williams was a lot better than Charles Barkely

People never give Jordan credit for maiking these guys better.

Without Jordan, Scottie Pippen becomes Donyell Marshall. I am not telling you MJ took Scottie and Horace under his wing to get them better, just to be a good guy. He was an ass to them, but he wanted to win and he rose these guys hard. He screamed at them, he mocked them, he stayed to go 1 on 1 with Scottie. Scottie and Horace once showed up late to a game in orlando due to hanging around Miami for some fun. No coach could have then gotten in their faces like MJ did after that.

Tim Grover was MJ's trainer, not the Bulls trainer. Its because of Jordan working out with grover in his private facility that made the Bulls build the Berto center. Jordan working his ass off made Horace Grant work out with him all the time and Horace is a great example, because with MJ, he is Harvey Grant.

Everything the Bulls were then and are now is because of Jordan. From the UC, to the Berto Center to John Paxson to Steve Kerr. The list of guys and things Jordan created is amazing.

Lebron didnt create anything. He bailed and ran away. Its how he will always be viewed.

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I would bet my Werther's Original that veganfan was very young and didnt watch those teams closely. He's going off numbers.

Just a guess.

In what way? Pippen vs Wade goes to wade. We all know Pippen was a no 2 at best while Wade won a title before LBJ as a leading man. Bosh took a hit in Miami, but he was a 23 10 player in Toronto prior to signing with Miami. He's still good.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

I think it should always be implied that # of titles means when you are clearly the best player on that title team. And Russell's argument gets held back a bit by just how few teams there were in the league. Jordan and LeBron are at least playing with a comparable # of teams, albeit the rules are completely different.

Let's stop with the Robert Horry nonsense. It's a waste of everybody's time here.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

No it doesnt go to Wade. Are you crazy? Pippen is/was a better player.

And Rodman was way more important than Kukoc, who didnt even start on that team.

Its not non sense when people are making ridiculous statements like LeBron has to win 6 titles to be as good.

That's crazy. There are a ton of factors that go into it and its not all on one player.

So, did Kobe become better than Shaq with the 5th title? I dont think so.

I think it's more than he values scoring significantly more than every other facet of the game. He would probably agree with JORR that Buck Williams was a superior player to Rodman. Conversely, JORR would probably agree Bosh is the superior player to Rodman.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Whenever anyone says that I'm always reminded of Barkley saying, "Why is it that Michael gets to make Scottie and Horace better and I have to make Johnny Dawkins and Manute Bol better?"

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Are you 100% certain that Jordan was the best player on his team during the second threepeat?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

We are comparing Jordan and Lebron here. Russell may very well be the greatest player ever. I don't think titles alone define that though.

No, we don't. The Horry argument fails because he was never even in consideration for the best players on those teams.
You have done nothing to show you are open to the other side of the argument. However, I will give you that chance now. Explain what would have to happen for the rest of Lebrons career for him to not be better than Jordan.

Lebron may end up better than Jordan. I have no problem with that if it happens. I just can't say he is because he is a better rebounder and shot blocker.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!