Yes, and that same thing can be said of Jordan and probably every championship ever.

LeBron quitting in the playoffs isn't an imagined slight. He obviously overcame his fear of pressure, but that was a very real thing. It's pretty hard to watch Game 5 and 6 of the Boston series in '08, and the Finals the following year against the Mavs, and not have that opinion. That has to hurt any Jordan comparisons.

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That's true

TWTW is real in basketball. Not so much in baseball and football, but the NBA lends itself to individuals.

TWTW is real everywhere. It's just that with only five guys on a side, it becomes more obvious. And one man can have a greater effect on a game.

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So, 6 titles to compare to Jordan then?

Why are you so quick to put down the supporting cast in Miami but you are then willing to say that last thing.

From where Lebron is now, the expectation should be 6 total titles. If he fails, there is a major red flag as to him not being as good as Jordan even though Lebron is better at shot blocking and rebounds.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

No better way to start the day than a pot of coffee and hours-long debates on the NBA. I love this board.

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Im not putting down anyone on the Heat (although Wade's injuries should be accounted for)

They're just not as good as Jordan's teammates.

That's what I mean.

Andre Dawson had a lot of will to win in 1987 but as a RF there is only so much you can do. Same with safeties in football.

Why is Wade being better, or slightly better, than Pippen so outrageous?

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_ ... e_wade.htm

Yes, these are just stats, and I submit them as one point, and not the final point.

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I like Rick's shot blocking and rebounding thing.


As if those shouldnt count?

I always find the "greatest ever" argument interesting because there are so many different criteria. To me, there are two ways to evaluate:

1) Greatest at one given time and...

2) Greatest career (most accomplished)

With LBJ and Jordan, the first is certainly debatable, and they're not even the only two in the conversation. There are players who were great at one point in their career but simply didn't have any longevity.

The second, to me, is not debatable at this point. Jordan is clearly more accomplished, but LBJ isn't done yet.

You also have to keep in mind that, with such a subjective topic, people will take circumstance and storylines into account. Jordan had a storybook career that I don't think can ever be matched. He had to overcome being a huge scorer that people never thought would win and overcome the great teams of the 80's to get "over the hump." He won 3 titles, then retired, then came back and won 3 more. It's really amazing when you stop to think about it. LBJ never overcame the "hump" in Cleveland and instead teamed up with the two other best free agents available to win his titles. I'm not saying it's fair to view it this way, but it always will be viewed this way. When LBJ went to Miami, he probably took himself out of consideration for "greatest career ever," IMO.

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Cranky old goat....me likey

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I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

Wade/Pippen is just as intriguing as Lebron/Jordan, but it's also a much more difficult comparison. Pippen never did anything as individually remarkable as Wade's '06 season, and that's not just including the title. Wade was arguably the best player in the NBA that season, and his supporting cast was weaker than any cast Kobe, LeBron, or Jordan ever won with. But his legs went early in his career, after only 5-6 seasons. He's not close to the player right now that Pippen was during Pippen's run with the Bulls. His style of play doesn't lend itself well to playing second fiddle, although I do think he has done a decent job trying to adapt to that. Pippen was the better all-around player, he was a much more fluid player within the confines of a team offense, and he is possibly the best and most versatile one-on-one defender in the history of basketball, and that wont show up on a basketball-reference page. In terms of consistent excellence, especially within a team game(which basketball certainly is), Pippen gets the upper hand. But Wade at his best was probably superior to Pippen at his best in terms of talent and one individual's impact on the game. Of course, you could also argue that the Pistons and Mavs teams that Wade beat on his way to the title don't compare to the Rockets or even the Knicks teams that Pippen had to face without Jordan. I think it's a closer call than Don Tiny suggests, but if you already have Jordan or LeBron, you're going to choose Pippen over Wade as a #2.

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For a guard, they really don't mean much to me. I never once watched Michael Jordan and said "He's good, but he doesn't block enough shot for my tastes". Maybe you did.

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When Jordan did block shots, were you upset?


Thats like discounting the passing of a great big man

But why wouldn't a guy who scored the same way but also rebounded more and blocked more shots and was a greater force on defense be a greater player? Because it's easier to say "he's just tall"?

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He has never scored the way Jordan has. That's like saying Buck Williams rebounded and defended the same way Rodman did.

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Who are you referring to here?

Only Wilt is even close to Jordan in terms of points per game.

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No, but I also didn't really care. The league was filled with better shot blockers. It just doesn't define him. It's just like how there were other players who got more assists. I still don't think Steve Nash is better than Jordan.
A big man is supposed to pass. Was Jordan supposed to be a dominant rebounder or block shots?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

One other thing to keep in mind. We are comparing Lebron's averages now to career averages of others. Unless Lebron retires in the next few years, those numbers will most certainly go down.

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Here is the LeBron can never I was referring to Rick.

I was wrong. You didnt say never. You just said they have to win 10 straight titles

No one else is doing that either, but you're acting like it should be discounted because its not part of the traditional guard role.

Thats silly.


Guards are supposed to rebound too, Rick.

I cant believe we've gotten to the point where you are literally aruging that LeBron being better at rebounding and shotblocking is irrelevant.

Read the whole thing. That was about Lebron proving he is the best and how hard it would be with Wade there.

It most certainly should be discounted. Otherwise, Jordan probably isn't a top 10 player. There are many players who had more balanced statistics.
Mostly yes it is. Do you think Jordan's rebounding and shot blocking ability was an issue? I never cared about it. I'm much more interested in him being the all time leader in points per game. I can find someone who is cheaper to rebound for me.

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Right. Thats what were talking about here. LeBron being the best. And you thought it would take 10 titles right?


That is absolute lunacy. You dont discount anything. And Jordan would still be the best because its not just rebounds and blocked shots, but they certainly count.

I cant believe you actually typed that with a straight keyboard.




So you like scorers. Enjoying Carmello?

Anyway, no Jordan wasnt lacking, but to discount aspects of the game that arent traditional strong suits is insane.

Obviously Jordan was the superior scorer. They were both among the best defensive players in the NBA during their prime. LeBron rebounded and passed more, and yeah, blocked more shots. But overall their career stats, traditional and advanced, are comparable. Jordan has 4 seasons of 31.0+ seasons of PER, with a career-high of 31.7. Lebron had 3 seasons of 31.0+ PER in his career and his career-high is 31.7. Jordan's career PER is 27.9, LeBron's is 27.8. Other categories such as best WS(Win Share) seasons favor Jordan.

I don't really like to rely just on stats for NBA discusssions, but there's been references to LeBron being the better statistical player. It's not true.

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Here are traditional stats

Jordan

28.3 ppg
5.9 rpb
4.4 apg
2.2 spg
.8 bpg
2.6 to/gm

LeBron

25.0 ppg
6.6 rpg
6.3 apg
1.6 spg
.7 bpg
3.0 to/gm

Who blocks more shots?

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I think that was Rick's thing.

The assists and rebounds are in LeBrons' favor if those matter

LeBron is statistically better except for ppg.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

They do matter. I added turnovers per game too and Jordan is better on the rest. And they are comparable with their best advanced ratings in PER, Ortg, WS, ws/48, etc, that attempt to measure the overall impact a player has on a game in aggregate. My point here is that let's not assume LeBron is the superior statistical player. He's not.

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I thought Jordan was at thirty for ppg. I remember him having to average something like 18 or 20 in his last season in Washington in order to maintain thirty for the career.

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