http://www.forbes.com/sites/leahbinder/ ... hospitals/

And there was a chart earlier in the thread regarding deaths from doctors. The third leading cause of death in the US currently.

Try the false equivalency argument with those that say I should "just try science."

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The third leading cause of death in America is doctors? Where is this study?

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This was the chart that the article linked to. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm

Take a look at #3 on that list.

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Hey, that dude lives in Chicago, he's Tony Rezko's neighbor at 71 W Jackson. If you can't trust a neighbor of Tony Rezko...

Yeah, I don’t see doctors.

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I bet if we can just keep this going for 25 more pages, minds will eventually be changed.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Good assumption.

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Great sig, FF.

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Good people drink good beer - Hunter S. Thompson

<º)))><

Waiting for the time when I can finally say
That this has all been wonderful, but now I'm on my way

Here's what I like about the article Seacrest linked. It starts off by referring to this study (http://journals.lww.com/journalpatients ... .aspx#P111) and then from that makes the following assertion:



Except that the linked study actually says:



There is quite a leap between an estimation of medical errors causing death and a naked assertion that "medical errors NOW claim the spot as the third leading cause of death in the United States."

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It would be a misleading stat even if it could be quantified because its impossible to account for all the lives that doctors save. It would certainly be a huge net positive.

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This thread has soared into the stratosphere of stupid. I'm ashamed to have been a part of it.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

That's not uncommon.

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Which part?

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Thread shame. I get it all the time.

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Why be ashamed of trying to convince the purposefully and actively ignorant the error of their ways considering it's not an argument of, say, "Michigan vs. THE Ohio State" but about (at least on one side) demonstrable, proven facts that affect the health of (for brevity's sake) potentially the entire world? It's not an argument wherein the point is to be able to raise the white "W" flag for its own sake, but as a matter of preserving important, significant medical gains. It's not a pissing contest, it's a matter of stamping out poor thinking not so "our side" wins a meaningless "victory".

The only shame here is ignored by the few parties that are not only the aforementioned purposefully and actively ignorant, but also duplicitous when attempting to explain their 'side' of things if not outright misrepresenting (aka lying) just so that they don't have to accept any level of continuity in their position.

There's a catchy meme floating around along the lines of "1984 was supposed to be a warning, not a roadmap"; the same apparently could be said of Idiocracy.

So, no ... i politely state that I categorically reject any feelings of "shame" by anyone (including you) stating plain and simple fact against such profound and self-serving ignorance, even if said in part jest.

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

Oregon Trail would have been a lot more interesting if there had been a cheat code that gave all of your party members vaccinations before the journey.

I love you Don.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

So am I the only one that can't understand why it's such a big deal (that needs to be "forgiven") when info from a PM is "shared".
Who cares? What is the deal with this?

It's like sending a text message to someone, once it's in somebody else's hands, they can choose to do whatever the hell they want to.

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I guess the problem is more the P and less the M.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Yeah I get it, but most "know" very few people on here. Maybe don't trust an online friend to keep secrets for you?

So T-Bone keeps sending me those pics of Hawg Ass - I'm supposed to keep those private or not?

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Yeah, I didn't think the concept of "private" was that hard to figure out.

Sure you can do what you want with it .... just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

Tell me, smart guy, you always trade secrets with strangers? Just because because it's in typed form doesn't make it less stupid of a concept.

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Again, I didn't think one had to be particularly smart to respect the concept of 'private' ... and, again, you've proven me wrong in that regard.

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

Not to mention that many of those patients would also have died without medical care, so the whole statistic is pretty dumb to compare to something like cancer or heart disease.

By all means, if someone thinks the chances of medical error outweigh the benefits of medical care, then make a pledge to refuse all medical care going forward.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

It doesn't matter. I already sent them everywhere. They went viral.

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Good people drink good beer - Hunter S. Thompson

<º)))><

Waiting for the time when I can finally say
That this has all been wonderful, but now I'm on my way

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Is US Healthcare Really the best in the World? Starfield_JAMA_2000

The findings by Barbara Starfield, MD, of Johns Hopkins School of Public Health,

12,000 deaths from unnecessary surgeries;
7,000 deaths from medication errors in hospitals;
20,000 deaths from other errors in hospitals;
80,000 deaths from infections acquired in hospitals;
106,000 deaths from FDA-approved correctly prescribed medicines.


You can find it in JAMA's archives.

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I'm surprised.

Shame is a debate "tool" you went to often in this thread.

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I think people who don't have children will be more informed before vaccinating their children. If they have more info, they are better off.

If you choose to vaccinate your kids someday, then good for you.

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You forgot to add, "OFFERING UP YOUR CHILDREN TO THE THRID MOST COMMON CAUSE OF DEATH IN THE UNITED STATES!!!!!!!111one!"

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