Its partly tied in to what Samardzijanotgonnaworkhereanymore is going to command in free agency.

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It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

I think the misconception is that ERA is more of a "pure" indicator of the pitcher's performance. But it is dependent upon many things, e.g. hitter's background, weather conditions, plate umpire, other park factors. Would you like to pitch 16 games at Coors Field and have your ERA compared to the guy who gets to pitch 17 at Chavez Ravine?

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Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Would you concede that whether or not a pitcher wins a game has just as many, if not more, variables going into it than how many earned runs he gives up over 9 innings?

Neither can a starting pitcher. Not judged well anyway.

You might think Bud Smith was the greatest pitcher of all time if you thought that way.


Or even thirteen games. This White Sox team looks like the '27 Yankees right now and I really doubt they are that. If we're talking about a top pitcher, he should beat the better offense with the lesser pitcher. Or maybe he isn't really a top pitcher. Jose Fernandez is a top pitcher. That's why his team loses 100 games when he doesn't pitch but projects to win 100 when he does.[/quote]
Hernandez would have had 5 more wins if he was on any other team.

Run support matters.

That's why Jon Lester had the same winning pct as Fernandez with an ERA a full run and a half higher

You left out the most important factor. The other team's offense or lackthereof


Would you like to face the 2013 Red Sox every day and be compared to a guy who faced the Marlins?

But I'm not judging a pitcher within the space of a single game. I'm judging him based on multiple season of success or lack thereof, success being measured in terms of his won/loss record. If that doesn't matter, I'm sure I can find a lot of guys a whole lot cheaper than Chris Sale to go 11-14.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

There are a lot of variables there, but they should be smoothed out over time unlike the ERA variables of a guy who gets to pitch half his games in a pitcher's paradise like Washington or Oakland over a significant amount of seasons.

You have to pitch the games you're in. The results aren't based on your averages. It's all relative to the situation.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

I don't think you can find many pitchers who could go 11-14 with last year's Sox team for what Sale cost the Sox to pitch last season.

_________________
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Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

In this thread you seem to be applying it to a three game sample

Over a career, Wins is a better stat.


And to answer your question, ERA is better to project future performance

(yes I know they do this, I'm just being snarky)

Well then couldn't we use data and find out what the different park's impact on ERA is, so we can compare apples to apples?

How about the variable of "my team's offense couldn't get me any run support if their lives depended on it"...does that one smooth itself out over time?

I don't believe that to be necessarily true. For example, I suspect Dan Straily will have a lower ERA this year than many guys I would take going forward. Straily is a good pitcher but pitching in Oakland is a huge advantage.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Of these, what is better? Retiring all 27 batters in order, or striking out 20 while giving up a hit and a HBP?

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Because this thread hadn't already derailed into one tired argument that was beaten to death...

Paying for your goddamn beer, Frank

Both suck. 0-0 onto the 10th...

There's no such thing as "run support". Why are you ignoring the efforts of the opposing pitcher(s)?

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Ok, I'm out...

What is "run support"? Isn't it just the lower ERA of the guy(s) your hero is facing?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Once again.....top 5

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Don't be so passive aggressive about it. Are you saying you know more about baseball than JORR? You needed basically every person on here, including Cub fans, to explain to you that OPS is a better indicator of performance than BA.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

How about you stop being so openly aggressive about everything?
Who said I know more about anything than anybody else?
Who cares?

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Imaginary message boarding

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spanky coming out strongly in favor of the Socratic method.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

I haven't been openly aggressive. And wasn't imagining anything. The Dunn is back thread is real.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I have stopped responding to many of FF's comments as he rephrases issues that then fall into exactly what he thinks, which means first you need to argue with him about the issue at hand, before you even get to what the original point was.

SO FAR, THIS SEASON, FIRST 3 GAMES. JEFF S. HAS BEEN A BETTER PITCHER THAN CHRIS S.

This in no way is a prediction of how good they will be this year, who I would rather have today, who is worth more today or anything else.

Let's add the fact that Samardzija has left each game after the 7th inning for a batter in the 8th,
Sale was removed in the 1st game in the 8th after a good, but not great outing and the most recent game, they took Sale out after the 5th, with 6 H and 3 runs. This game is the worse game of any of the 6 games you can use for both as a sample.

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+1

All I want to know is if JORR thinks Dunn is back.

4+yrs vs. 1st 2 weeks of the season. Yeah, i'd go with the latter.

The ladder?

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014