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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:56 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
man of few opinions wrote:
hmmm - having a hard time seeing this progressive new argument that a pitchers job is anything OTHER than getting the other team's hitters out as much as possible


Have you ever seen an intentional walk? Have you ever seen a pitcher "pitch around" a hitter?

Isn't that normally done to take the bat out of the hand of a more dangerous hitter for a less dangerous hitter in order to prevent runs for being scored?

A lot like playing cutthroat.

Sometimes you knock your own 3-ball in in order to lineup a nice few shots on the remaining 8, 10, and 12-balls in.

It is a risk, but the goal remains the same. Don't let the other guys knock your balls in. Don't let the other team score a bunch of runs.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:58 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
man of few opinions wrote:
hmmm - having a hard time seeing this progressive new argument that a pitchers job is anything OTHER than getting the other team's hitters out as much as possible


Have you ever seen an intentional walk? Have you ever seen a pitcher "pitch around" a hitter?

Isn't that normally done to take the bat out of the hand of a more dangerous hitter for a less dangerous hitter in order to prevent runs for being scored?


Yes, but it's the opposite of preventing baserunners or "getting the other team's hitters out as much as possible".

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:59 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Darkside wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
man of few opinions wrote:
hmmm - having a hard time seeing this progressive new argument that a pitchers job is anything OTHER than getting the other team's hitters out as much as possible


Have you ever seen an intentional walk? Have you ever seen a pitcher "pitch around" a hitter?

Isn't that normally done to take the bat out of the hand of a more dangerous hitter for a less dangerous hitter in order to prevent runs for being scored?


Yes, but it's the opposite of preventing baserunners or "getting the other team's hitters out as much as possible".


It's preventing runs. And giving up 1 run to try to save 3 others doesn't mean you aren't trying to give up runs.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:00 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Yes, but it's the opposite of preventing baserunners or "getting the other team's hitters out as much as possible".

Well I don't think anyone is arguing that the ultimate goal is preventing base runners. And clearly sometimes you have to walk a guy to get a more likely out.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:07 pm 
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Everyone on all sides of this discussion is on board with WHIP

Let's just go with that



Btw neutralized pitching stats (I'd love to see the look on Jorrs face when he first heard of this stat) says Sheets should have been 16-10. Colon should have been 11-12


I think the W-L Oct is a good indicator over a career and there are definitely pitchers who are wiiners. Some pitch better with a lead, some always manages to give up 3 after getting a 2-0 lead


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:24 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Everyone on all sides of this discussion is on board with WHIP

I don't think IMU is...

immessedup17 wrote:
Pitchers pitch against the batters on the other team. Samardzija has done that better than Chris Sale through the beginning of this season.

Case closed.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:27 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
man of few opinions wrote:
hmmm - having a hard time seeing this progressive new argument that a pitchers job is anything OTHER than getting the other team's hitters out as much as possible


Have you ever seen an intentional walk? Have you ever seen a pitcher "pitch around" a hitter?


JORR you are perhaps my favorite poster on the board, but you are way out in left field if these two situations designed specifically to help make outs and prevent runs are your argument that pitchers goals are NOT to get outs and prevent runs.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:31 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Everyone on all sides of this discussion is on board with WHIP

I don't think IMU is...

immessedup17 wrote:
Pitchers pitch against the batters on the other team. Samardzija has done that better than Chris Sale through the beginning of this season.

Case closed.

I guess you could say its No Sale for IMU

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:46 pm 
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I'll not accept any one stat as the determining factor for a pitcher's skill / success.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:49 pm 
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man of few opinions wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
man of few opinions wrote:
hmmm - having a hard time seeing this progressive new argument that a pitchers job is anything OTHER than getting the other team's hitters out as much as possible


Have you ever seen an intentional walk? Have you ever seen a pitcher "pitch around" a hitter?


JORR you are perhaps my favorite poster on the board, but you are way out in left field if these two situations designed specifically to help make outs and prevent runs are your argument that pitchers goals are NOT to get outs and prevent runs.


I appreciate that, Mofo. I guess the simple answer is that a starting pitcher's only job is to allow less runs than the pitcher(s) he is opposing. Naturally he doesn't want to give up runs or allow baserunners but sometimes that beats the potential alternative.

I do find it ironic that so many guys are insisting that all the things Sheets did well should be a better predictor of his future performance than the big W/L record put up by Colon when history has obviously shown that not to be true in this particular case. Nas may want to find a different poster boy for his argument. :lol:

Some guys are just winners and some guys are losers. I'm not saying Samardzija is a loser by any means. I don't think we have enough information to know that. But I'm sure that if he were traded to the Yankees many would expect him to win 18-20 games next season and if he doesn't, I'd suggest that maybe his W/L records were a better indicator of what he would do than his WHIP or K/9 rates. People thought Javy Vazquez was going to win the Cy Young when he was traded to the Yankees. He was the same damn .500 pitcher he had been in Montreal.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:50 pm 
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immessedup17 wrote:
I'll not accept any one stat as the determining factor for a pitcher's skill / success.


There's no need to. In fact, I'm not sure why you need to determine it at all.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:54 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
immessedup17 wrote:
I'll not accept any one stat as the determining factor for a pitcher's skill / success.


There's no need to. In fact, I'm not sure why you need to determine it at all.

...be....because this is baseball, and it is a fun discussion?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:15 am 
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immessedup17 wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
immessedup17 wrote:
I'll not accept any one stat as the determining factor for a pitcher's skill / success.


There's no need to. In fact, I'm not sure why you need to determine it at all.

...be....because this is baseball, and it is a fun discussion?


Yeah, okay.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:24 pm 
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I think Samardzija is having a great season.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:58 pm 
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Len and J.D. just stated, on live TV, that a pitcher's job every inning is to get 3 outs and put a 0 on the board.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:32 pm 
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immessedup17 wrote:
Len and J.D. just stated, on live TV, that a pitcher's job every inning is to get 3 outs and put a 0 on the board.


It must be right then. But what would Jim Deshaies (84-95) think?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:47 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
immessedup17 wrote:
Len and J.D. just stated, on live TV, that a pitcher's job every inning is to get 3 outs and put a 0 on the board.


It must be right then. But what would Jim Deshaies (84-95) think?

They are paid to know far more about baseball than you.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:22 pm 
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immessedup17 wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
immessedup17 wrote:
Len and J.D. just stated, on live TV, that a pitcher's job every inning is to get 3 outs and put a 0 on the board.


It must be right then. But what would Jim Deshaies (84-95) think?

They are paid to know far more about baseball than you.


No, they're not. They're paid to blabber during a game and describe what's happening. You don't know what a pitcher's job is. You don't know what an announcer's job is. Do you know what your own job is?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:32 pm 
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If a pitcher loses a game that he didn't give up a hit or a walk in did he have a bad game? Do you think Samardzija is having a great/good season?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:58 pm 
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Obviously Shark's an asshole who nobody on the team likes enough to hit or pitch for. I'm only 25% joking.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:00 pm 
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KDdidit wrote:
Obviously Shark's an asshole who nobody on the team likes enough to hit or pitch for. I'm only 25% joking.


:lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:08 pm 
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Nas wrote:
If a pitcher loses a game that he didn't give up a hit or a walk in did he have a bad game?


How often does that happen? Don't talk silly. Get in the real world with me.

Nas wrote:
Do you think Samardzija is having a great/good season?


How great a season could he be having when almost every pitcher he faces does better than he does? He's pitched several games in Wrigley when gale force winds have been blowing in. Do you think that might possibly be related to his low runs allowed (and the low runs allowed of the guys he's faced)?

I'll say this, it could be that he's playing on a bad team and that is the cause of his poor records to some degree. That's a definite possibility. The sample isn't very big. But if you flat out ignore a guy's W/L record you definitely run the risk of believing Ross Baumgarten was a good pitcher. There are safer bets when signing a guy to the kind of dough he's gonna get.

Also, I find it hysterical that IMU doesn't see anything amusing about a guy with a career .470 winning percentage believing W/L record doesn't matter.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:57 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
No, they're not. They're paid to blabber during a game and describe what's happening. You don't know what a pitcher's job is. You don't know what an announcer's job is. Do you know what your own job is?

Making your W/L thoughts look silly.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:59 pm 
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immessedup17 wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
No, they're not. They're paid to blabber during a game and describe what's happening. You don't know what a pitcher's job is. You don't know what an announcer's job is. Do you know what your own job is?

Making your W/L thoughts look silly.


You make yourself look silly by arguing Ben Sheets was better than Bartolo Colon and saying Nolan Ryan was the best pitcher ever.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:01 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
immessedup17 wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
No, they're not. They're paid to blabber during a game and describe what's happening. You don't know what a pitcher's job is. You don't know what an announcer's job is. Do you know what your own job is?

Making your W/L thoughts look silly.


You make yourself look silly by arguing Ben Sheets was better than Bartolo Colon and saying Nolan Ryan was the best pitcher ever.

He was better in 2004. I never said Nolan Ryan was best ever. Do you now need to make up shit? How far you've fallen.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:12 pm 
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Well count such noted winners as AL Soriano and Matt Garza in on the "poor Jeff Samardzija " bandwagon.

The ones who have left talk as if they’ve escaped.

As if the Cubs have become baseball’s Alcatraz, where players do time until free agency or the inevitable trade while the lucky ones get reduced sentences by virtue of one-year flip contracts.

Just listen to Milwaukee Brewers pitcher Matt Garza’s advice to Jeff Samardzija, who will be on the trading block this summer.

“All I can tell him is keep pitching; pitch your way out of it,” said Garza, who was acquired by the Cubs in 2011 to help the team win, but instead endured the worst three-year stretch in franchise history. “Keep your eyes focused, your eyes straight ahead and just pitch. There’s nothing else you can do.”

Except maybe keep track of the days by scratching marks on the cell-block wall.

Nobody could blame Samardzija for taking the advice of his friend and former teammate, not with the way he has pitched this season without a win to show for it.

The powerful right-hander is in the top six in the National League in ERA and top five in innings pitched but has lost would-be wins to blown saves (twice) and zero run support (twice).

“I told him, ‘It doesn’t matter, dude, you play in Chicago,’ ’’ Garza said. “ ‘I was there, and I lost 30 wins in three seasons. It’s not your fault. You pitch your way out of there.’ ”

Garza (traded to the Texas Rangers last July), New York Yankees outfielder Alfonso Soriano (traded to the Yankees in July) and Brewers third baseman Aramis Ramirez (free agent after 2011) all say the same thing when they look at what the Cubs have become under Theo Epstein’s stewardship.

They found relief and new life when they left for teams that were trying to win. And they’re glad they’re gone.

Especially after seeing a 2014 version of the Cubs that fell to 7-16 after its 5-3 loss to the Brewers on Saturday. There is no discernable end to the process.

“It’s huge,” Ramirez said. “We’ve all been around for a while, and the next thing for us is winning. We don’t want to be in a development situation and a rebuilding process. I don’t have 10 years left. I have to try to win now, and same thing for Garza and Sori.”

Garza, 30, and Samardzija, 29, were young enough for the Cubs to pursue long-term deals. But neither wanted to settle for mid-market prices from the big-market Cubs, especially with no assurances that winning was on the immediate horizon.

And the Cubs’ brass didn’t have the will — or perhaps the resources — to risk bigger bets on the potential frontline starters.

Now Samardzija is all but certain to go the way of ­Soriano, Garza, Scott Feldman, Ryan Dempster and several others the last two years: traded for prospects in July.

“I’m hoping the best for him because he’s a young kid who deserves a shot to maybe go win something,” Garza said.

Maybe in New York, said Soriano.

“I love Samardzija. I hope he comes here,” he said during the Cubs’ recent trip to New York. “If not here, somewhere he feels comfortable and gets a chance to win. Because that’s what it’s all about. At the end of the day, we play to win. We don’t play to have fun and just lose. We play to be a champion.”

Ramirez finds it hard to believe the Cubs aren’t doing more to build around Samardzija.

“You just don’t find those guys,” he said. “I’d take him, for sure. Who wouldn’t take Samardzija? He’s the perfect guy for any ballclub.”

Samardzija isn’t trying to escape. But he is hungry to win.

“Everybody’s here for the present,” he said. “Tomorrow’s not guaranteed to anybody, let alone next year or the year after that.”

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

No, no you don't . You guys play for whomever pays you the most you fucking piece of shit liar.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:22 am 
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immessedup17 wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
immessedup17 wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
No, they're not. They're paid to blabber during a game and describe what's happening. You don't know what a pitcher's job is. You don't know what an announcer's job is. Do you know what your own job is?

Making your W/L thoughts look silly.


You make yourself look silly by arguing Ben Sheets was better than Bartolo Colon and saying Nolan Ryan was the best pitcher ever.

He was better in 2004. I never said Nolan Ryan was best ever. Do you now need to make up shit? How far you've fallen.


Yeah, you did say it. It's probably been pruned by now, but you said it.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:24 am 
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badrogue17 wrote:
Well count such noted winners as AL Soriano and Matt Garza in on the "poor Jeff Samardzija " bandwagon.


Isn't it amazing how Garza is under .500 when playing for the worst team in baseball and still under .500 when playing for the best?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:12 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
Well count such noted winners as AL Soriano and Matt Garza in on the "poor Jeff Samardzija " bandwagon.


Isn't it amazing how Garza is under .500 when playing for the worst team in baseball and still under .500 when playing for the best?

He had a winning record with the Cubs.

He's 1-2 with the Brewers.


Last edited by Kirkwood on Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:13 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
Well count such noted winners as AL Soriano and Matt Garza in on the "poor Jeff Samardzija " bandwagon.


Isn't it amazing how Garza is under .500 when playing for the worst team in baseball and still under .500 when playing for the best?

He had a winning record with the Cubs.


Career peak.

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