You said when the Cubs are good again players would sign for them like the in 2000s. I just didn't think they really did, at least not great ones. And I think resigning your own guys doesn't count for as much as actually getting them. Trading for Lee and Ramirez and signing Zambrano as an amateur were great moves. Resigning your good players before they hit free agency should be expected and isn't anything to be praised.

Im not praising it. Im saying if there was really an Anti Cub thing with players, those guys could have and would have left

KD they were a lot better back then and didn't really need to sign a big FA after 2007. They ended up getting Soriano who was (at the time) one of the best 2 or 3 prize FAs on the market.

Now the Cubs are awful again and really do need FAs to get the team better. It probably is going to be hard for them to do that without overspending.

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Only one of those three seasons was 90 wins or above. Two of those were Division titles that were the result of an EXTREMELY weak division.

And 2004 was a collapse.

I guess I don't remember it in the same way you do.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

No, I think you're missing what Im saying. Im not celebrating or saying those years were great. Im merely pointing out that it was considered a destination for free agents and probably always will be.

I'm not so sure about that.

Day games and lack of clubhouse amenities along with a terrible team could end up keeping some FAs away.

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And we've come full circle.

At the beginning I said, as soon as their good. A good Cub team will always draw fans and free agents, imo

As long as they are in Wrigleyville, I agree 100%.

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I met Hendry this weekend (button 48!). Nice guy. He did more glad handing than watching the game but that's not all that unusual. Drops an F bomb every other word. He was talking to the guy standing next to me and he said some very interesting things.

The same can be said for any stat. Baseball is a game of time and repetition. That's its very core. That's why we aren't arguing about John Paciorek being the greatest hitter ever although I suppose a case can be made that he is.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Like...?

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

In 2005 and 2006 Greg Maddux was 22-26 with the Cubs. Ain't he a great pitcher, even by his wins totals?

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

He wasn't a great pitcher at that point in his career. He was 40 years old and winding down.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

But the following year he was .560

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

In fact after he left the Cubs in 2006 he was 6-3...
So is it conceivable that the Cubs roster kept down his wins totals those two years?

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Sure, over such a small sample. He was still a pretty decent pitcher. But for a 40 year old guy to go .500 or just to make all 33 starts is an accomplishment.

I've never said there haven't been guys who suffered bad luck over a season. But that can't just go on continuously if you're actually any good. Walter Johnson won 400 games on horrendous teams. Steve Carlton won 27 games on a team that won 59 games. Jose Fernandez's team loses 100 games. When he pitches it projects to win 100 games. Good pitching beats good hitting most of the time.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

2+ years is a small sample size for a veteran proven pitcher? He's a guy who was a perrenial winner until the Cubs, then wasn't, then was after he left.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

It's a small 12 game sample on a contending team. From that point on he was 30-37. I think that suggests the 6-3 with L.A. was the anomaly rather than the remaining losing record.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Fascinating

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Are you really arguing that the 40 year old Maddux was exactly the same as Maddux in his prime?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

It isn't an anomaly. It is not a deviation from the norm.

It is an easily explainable happening.

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

He had a losing record from 2005 through the end of his career. You're selecting a specific 12 game stretch during that time where he went 6-3 to show... I don't know what.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

No. I think it's interesting that you're saying that a higher than expected win total had something to do with being on a contending team.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

It sure doesn't hurt to be on a good team. Just like it doesn't hurt a pitcher to pitch a bunch of games in Chavez Ravine. That's why this isn't really science. All players don't establish any of their numbers in the same matchups or the same ballparks or in the same weather conditions. People act as if some baseball numbers are apples to apples. Why complain about the vagaries between different W/L records and ignore the vagaries in differnt guys' ERAs or WHIPs?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

I don't think anyone does that.
This thread is weird as hell.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

How good were the Cubs in 2004 compared to 2005?
How good were the Dodgers and Padres compared to the Cubs?

The team a pitcher pitcher's for has an affect on pitcher's W/L record. Who knew?

Also, Maddux was 14-11 in 2007. He went on a 20-14 run. One year before he retired.

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Let me summarize this.

1. No pitcher can be judged by any one stat.
2. Of the generally accepted pitcher statistics, only Win/Loss and to a lesser extent ERA can be affected by other players on his team. Maybe saves too I guess but I was really thinking of starting pitchers.
3. We accept that pitchers obviously do not pitch in the same park nor with the same umpires or environmental conditions. This is consistent across all sports and all positions in which statistics are nevertheless compared.
4. The quality of an opposing pitcher in any individual game is irrelevant to the quality of the pitcher in question.

That's pretty much it.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

You forgot one thing. A forty year old Maddux is about equivalent to Garza and Samardzija in their prime.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Serious question... are you insane? Why do you feel the need to make shit up when supporting your arguments?

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014