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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 2:17 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Unless Ricketts wants the Cubs to win.
I think he will, eventually.

Based on business timelines of all this though, that time probably happens about 2020. It seems clear his priorities are:
1) Increase the profitability of Wrigley
2) Extract profit from ticket sales vs. payroll
3) Compete

Now, he can't be a last place team until 2020, but being .500 by 2016 probably buys him more time, and the big spending doesn't really need to start until 2 years after that. As long as they start showing progress from year to year he'll have something to sell.

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 2:35 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Did you know the owner is technically "The Ricketts Family" and Tom is just the CEO?

Pretty sure Joe's finances are still good
Yup. That's why the whole debt thing is made up.

They are "in debt" because debt is cheap and they can make more money paying the insanely low interest rate they likely are for this. It's also very convenient to explain a lack of spending on the team. It really is a win-win for them.



I'm not exactly sure how the purchase was structured, but I believe that Zell insisted on the new owners carrying the debt the way it is, perhaps for purposes of his own taxes.

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 3:03 pm 
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a) high priced FA's w/no farm system or (b) develop farm system and sufffer through bad seasons at the majors for a few years.... Ricketts and the cubs did a good job of selling to cub fans it was one or the other.... even though a owner in better financial standing could have done both options concurrently.


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 3:13 pm 
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Maybe we can get the state to build a new stadium? and then fund every upgrade for the next 30 years!

Plan B

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 3:43 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
It gets worse by the day

I hope there is a tape of Ricketts saying disgusting things somewhere


I mean they'll be decent eventually, but Ill bet it will be in spite of and not because of this lucky sperm club clown

Report: Players’ Union Monitoring Cubs’ Lack Of Spending
May 27, 2014 9:29 AM

(CBS) The MLB Players Association has expressed concern over the Cubs’ lack of spending on players, according to a Chicago Sun-Times report published over the weekend. Despite playing in the nation’s third biggest market, Chicago’s payroll is around $90 million, a number that ranks in the bottom one-third of the sport.
The Cubs’ payroll has decreased in each of the past four years, according to Cot’s, as the franchise undergoes a complete rebuilding project, with a focus currently on developing young players instead of spending big in free agency.
More from the Sun-Times:
Sources said the union is concerned about how the Cubs’ business practices are affecting player markets. At least one agent met with Cubs chairman Tom Ricketts this year, according to sources, to make the case for investing in the major-league team even as the club overhauls the scouting and player development system.
Whether the most powerful players union in American sports can do anything about the high-revenue team’s years-long trend of spending cuts and roster purges is tricky. It might depend in part on how much longer it lasts and if the union can find grounds for action in Major League Baseball’s debt-ratio rules for clubs.
There is precedent for the league and union pushing teams to increase spending, as the Marlins were forced to do so several years ago. The difference in that situation and the Cubs’ is that the Marlins were receiving money from the revenue sharing system, while the Cubs pay into it. So it remains to be seen what, if any, action the Cubs could be forced to take.


This is just a poor attempt from a dying newspaper to stir things up. G.Nitwitenmyer has been bashing Ricketts since he bought the team. You shouldn't pay attention to anything this guy prints. He said in his interview that no one really said they where going to do anything about the Cubs spending, but if they did.... :wink:

Offcourse they are keeping track of Cubs spending. They are keeping track of EVERYONES spending! He just twist that fact to make up a stupid article and get some air time. Move along

PS. why is every Cub thread have the same two Sox fans posting in them? Every time I click on a post about the Cubs, here comes the same two Sox trolls.


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 5:11 pm 
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I think the Marlins' cost-cutting got so bad a few years ago that MLB itself, not the union, gave them a warning to start playing to win.

Chicago Cubs Baseball: We're Not Quite the Marlins Yet

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 5:24 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
I think the Marlins' cost-cutting got so bad a few years ago that MLB itself, not the union, gave them a warning to start playing to win.

Chicago Cubs Baseball: We're Not Quite the Marlins Yet



I think it says further up in the thread that the Marlins were close to or breaking rules about what they did with the revenue sharing funds.

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 7:13 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I'm not exactly sure how the purchase was structured, but I believe that Zell insisted on the new owners carrying the debt the way it is, perhaps for purposes of his own taxes.



DING DING DING..... we have a winner... it didn't matter who bought the team Bill Gates, Carlos Slim Helu, Warren Buffett or Mark Cuban... Zell and The Tribune Company set up the deal so the new owner would be forced to take on debt.It had a lot to do do with the Tribune bankruptcy and is also why the Tribune retained a 5% ownership interest.

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 7:16 pm 
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THE INQUISITOR wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I'm not exactly sure how the purchase was structured, but I believe that Zell insisted on the new owners carrying the debt the way it is, perhaps for purposes of his own taxes.



DING DING DING..... we have a winner... it didn't matter who bought the team Bill Gates, Carlos Slim Helu, Warren Buffett or Mark Cuban... Zell and The Tribune Company set up the deal so the new owner would be forced to take on debt.It had a lot to do do with the Tribune bankruptcy and is also why the Tribune retained a 5% ownership interest.
Except, I doubt he was forced to take on debt for the renovations too, which didn't even exist at the time of sale.

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 7:24 pm 
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THE INQUISITOR wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I'm not exactly sure how the purchase was structured, but I believe that Zell insisted on the new owners carrying the debt the way it is, perhaps for purposes of his own taxes.



DING DING DING..... we have a winner... it didn't matter who bought the team Bill Gates, Carlos Slim Helu, Warren Buffett or Mark Cuban... Zell and The Tribune Company set up the deal so the new owner would be forced to take on debt.It had a lot to do do with the Tribune bankruptcy and is also why the Tribune retained a 5% ownership interest.


Tribune co retains 5% for 10 years (could be more of less) but that period of time allows them to pay very little or no taxes, which takes me right back to King Obama who loves going after the people of the United States to get more tax money, when some bullshit like this is on the books.

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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 12:52 am 
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THE INQUISITOR wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I'm not exactly sure how the purchase was structured, but I believe that Zell insisted on the new owners carrying the debt the way it is, perhaps for purposes of his own taxes.


DING DING DING..... we have a winner... it didn't matter who bought the team Bill Gates, Carlos Slim Helu, Warren Buffett or Mark Cuban... Zell and The Tribune Company set up the deal so the new owner would be forced to take on debt.It had a lot to do do with the Tribune bankruptcy and is also why the Tribune retained a 5% ownership interest.


Except Gates, Buffett & Cuban have a lot more money than Ricketts & no one would be talking about their debt to income ratio & their ability to spend.

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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 6:37 am 
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Scorehead wrote:
THE INQUISITOR wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I'm not exactly sure how the purchase was structured, but I believe that Zell insisted on the new owners carrying the debt the way it is, perhaps for purposes of his own taxes.


DING DING DING..... we have a winner... it didn't matter who bought the team Bill Gates, Carlos Slim Helu, Warren Buffett or Mark Cuban... Zell and The Tribune Company set up the deal so the new owner would be forced to take on debt.It had a lot to do do with the Tribune bankruptcy and is also why the Tribune retained a 5% ownership interest.


Except Gates, Buffett & Cuban have a lot more money than Ricketts & no one would be talking about their debt to income ratio & their ability to spend.
The wealth of the Ricketts family is in the "mutli-billions".

Why is there some sort of desire here to pretend like the Ricketts are poor? They may not be Gates or Buffett but the Ricketts family is on par with Mark Cuban in terms of wealth.

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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 9:10 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Why is there some sort of desire here to pretend like the Ricketts are poor? They may not be Gates or Buffett but the Ricketts family is on par with Mark Cuban in terms of wealth.

Not sure Tom has carte blanche to spend the family money

Some see Tom on his own. Which may be true.


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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 9:18 am 
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Reducing the Debt, the IRS Audit, and Spending Out of Pocket

So, we’ve established that the Chicago Cubs’ debt is something of a restrictive element when it comes to spending. Can’t the Ricketts Family just get rid of the debt? Just pay it all off and be done with it?

No, not really. Remember the structure of the Tribune Company/Ricketts Family transaction involving the Cubs? The leveraged partnership? Here’s the thing about a leveraged partnership that is designed to defer taxable consequences: it can’t look like a sale that’s been dressed up as something else.

Indeed, there are “disguised sale” rules that govern these kinds of partnership transactions, and if it quacks too much like a sale, the IRS will pounce. I can only imagine that if the “buyer” in a leveraged partnership immediately paid off the debt – you know, the debt that made the whole partnership transaction not look like a sale – the deal would look fishy real quick. Further, the entire point of the leveraged partnership transaction was to defer the taxable consequences of the sale of the Chicago Cubs. Once the debt is paid off, by rule the deferral ends, and the taxes must be paid.

The partnership, which will own the Cubs through 2019, will also be carrying debt for that period. That, simply put, is that.

An interesting sub-wrinkle: Even when ostensibly following the letter of the law, a leveraged partnership can come under IRS scrutiny if it looks too much like a sale. And that’s exactly what happened last year with a Tribune Company transaction involving the formation of a leveraged partnership very similar to the Chicago Cubs transaction: the “sale” of Newsday to Cablevision, regarding which the IRS has already concluded there was a sale that should have resulted in the Tribune Company paying tax on gains back in 2008.

The IRS is also auditing the Tribune Company’s taxes for 2009, the year in which the Chicago Cubs’ “sale” took place, and that transaction is also being scrutinized. Presumably, the IRS will seek to treat the “sale” of the Chicago Cubs as a sale (no quotation marks) for tax purposes, as it did with Newsday, and the Tribune Company may wind up with a heavy tax bill when all is said and done.

Here’s where I’d love to say that, if the Tribune Company is forced to recognize the Chicago Cubs transaction as a sale and pay taxes accordingly – whether by edict or by negotiated settlement agreement – the constrictive partnership structure goes away, and the Ricketts Family is free to do as it pleases with the Cubs, including obliterating the team’s debt. Unfortunately, I can’t say that, because I’m simply not so sure that’s how things would proceed, given the complexities of the partnership and the debt. That said: it’s worth keeping tabs on the IRS investigation. If and when it finally comes to a resolution, some of these issues will likely be re-examined.

Circling back to the Cubs’ debt load. So if the existence of the massive debt is at least partly artificial, and if it isn’t within the Ricketts Family’s power to make it go away on their own, here comes the obvious question: why can’t the Ricketts Family just spend out of pocket to increase payroll until the debt is paid down?

Well, technically they could. It’s worth pointing out, however, that the ownership structure of the team (and, well, prudence) doesn’t make things quite as simple as “billionaires own the team, spend some money, damn it.”

Recall, the Chicago Cubs are owned by a partnership (Chicago Baseball Holdings, LLC) between Ricketts Acquisition, LLC (95%) and the Tribune Company (5%). Ricketts Acquisition, in turn, is 100% owned by the Joe and Marlene Ricketts Grandchildren’s Education Trust (the “Ricketts Family Trust”). The Ricketts Family Trust, which obviously does not exist solely to fund the Chicago Cubs, much as the fans may wish it so, is operated by RPTC, Inc. as Trustee. And RPTC’s President is Joe Ricketts, with attorney David Larson, and Tom, Pete, Todd and Laura Ricketts serving on the board. So, although there are interrelations between the persons running the Cubs and the entities on up the chain, those entities are distinct, serving different purposes. The Cubs are, in some ways, a self-contained – and, thus, self-reliant – entity.

Furthermore, to the extent the Ricketts Family – in whatever its corporate incarnation – desired to spend out of pocket on the Chicago Cubs, I’d expect them to do so in ways that would further the long-term baseball and business goals of the organization. For example, financing the renovation and development of Wrigley Field, as the Ricketts Family has pledged to do, is an investment that returns money to the organization every year, rather than a one-time free agent expense that guarantees nothing. From a purely selfish standpoint as a Cubs fan – one with a very long view – even I would rather the Ricketts opt for the former over the latter.

Of course, even if the Ricketts Family were in a position to spend lavishly out of pocket on payroll right now, it may not be the wisest strategy anyway …

I'm of the belief this is Tommy's toy. He got his seed money and now has to make it work on his own.


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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 9:26 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Not sure Tom has carte blanche to spend the family money

Some see Tom on his own. Which may be true.
They made a poor investment if they aren't financially backing it.

This isn't a banana stand.

It's just advantageous for them in every way to portray it like this, and even operate like this.

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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 9:29 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Not sure Tom has carte blanche to spend the family money

Some see Tom on his own. Which may be true.
They made a poor investment if they aren't financially backing it.

This isn't a banana stand.

I think how Kirkwood described it is likely to be true.


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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 9:32 am 
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Ok. I guess Ricketts is off the hook!

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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 9:37 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Ok. I guess Ricketts is off the hook!

Oh, calm down.

You are still waaaay behind me in the Blame Ricketts race so just chill.


You act like its a crazy thought that Joe Ricketts might not let Tom access all the family's money.


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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 9:38 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
You act like its a crazy thought that Joe Ricketts might not let Tom access all the family's money.
It is though.

The Ricketts aren't dumb. They know what makes them the most money. Do you think Joe Ricketts is hurting the financial situation of the Cubs to prove a point to his son?

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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 9:48 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
You act like its a crazy thought that Joe Ricketts might not let Tom access all the family's money.
It is though.

The Ricketts aren't dumb. They know what makes them the most money. Do you think Joe Ricketts is hurting the financial situation of the Cubs to prove a point to his son?

They dont have to be dumb.

They have enough money to let Tom have this thing to work with. Its not crazy. Its likely.


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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 9:51 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
You act like its a crazy thought that Joe Ricketts might not let Tom access all the family's money.
I don't think this is a crazy thought. I don't think it would be a very smart move on Joe's part, but its not outlandish by any means.

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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 9:53 am 
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Honestly probably only a handful of people outside of the family themselves know for sure.


Sure, Joe could have an interest and put money into it to make it a winning investment


But he could also just help Tom buy it and let him sink or swim. Its not like the team is losing value.


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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 9:55 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
They have enough money to let Tom have this thing to work with. Its not crazy. Its likely.
That is the point I have been making all along!

They are doing what makes them the most money and wins the PR battle. To say they are struggling with debt is like saying that Donald Trump is bankrupt. Technically true, but done on purpose to simply make more money.

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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 10:03 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
They have enough money to let Tom have this thing to work with. Its not crazy. Its likely.
That is the point I have been making all along!

They are doing what makes them the most money and wins the PR battle. To say they are struggling with debt is like saying that Donald Trump is bankrupt. Technically true, but done on purpose to simply make more money.

No, were not really saying the same thing here.

Im saying its possible that Tom said "here take this and buy the team, good luck. you are on your own with this"


Of course the Tom is not in real financial trouble as you and I and all the non NSJ's on this board know it. But by sports owner standards he could certainly be.

And the debt being built into the deal really hurts this whole Evil Debt Plan argument.


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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 10:07 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Im saying its possible that Tom said "here take this and buy the team, good luck. you are on your own with this"
There is a 0% chance that is true. Let's go to a hypothetical world where Tom Ricketts is about to lose the Cubs tomorrow and have MLB take over operation because they can't pay their bills. Does that debt magically disappear by the same family that owns it? Of course.
rogers park bryan wrote:
And the debt being built into the deal really hurts this whole Evil Debt Plan argument.
That would make sense if not for the extra money they are now spending on renovations which has nothing to do with the original sale.

This is just a bunch of rich people using debt to their advantage, and then playing it off to make other excuses and win PR battles. You are a guy who talks about how you don't approve of how Ricketts is running things but even you are also making excuses for him. That is the true secret here. It's quite genius actually. In terms of business strategy, it's pretty impressive.

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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 10:09 am 
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Being money strapped to sprinkle some veteran hitting in the lineup? C'mon,they are not that broke.Who knows what the addition of 3 or 5 ML Bats would have done.

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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 10:20 am 
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That is a lot of bats, jimmy. I know they break but I don't think they need 5 million of them.

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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 11:14 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Im saying its possible that Tom said "here take this and buy the team, good luck. you are on your own with this"
There is a 0% chance that is true. Let's go to a hypothetical world where Tom Ricketts is about to lose the Cubs tomorrow and have MLB take over operation because they can't pay their bills. Does that debt magically disappear by the same family that owns it? Of course.

You're acting like there's an open account with funds for Tom to dip into. What you describe in that extreme example is a safety net of having a family with money. Stepping in to help the business not fail is not the same things as actively investing or supplying funds for the business all along.


Its not "might have to sell tomorrow" or "rolling in dough" As always, there is a middle ground and its not black and white.


Would you say Rob Kardashian's dress sock line has all the Kardashian money behind it? That's what the Cubs are, Rick. They are Rob Kardashian's Sock line.

So if your point is the Ricketts family has the money to prevent a disaster, that's fine, but that doesnt preclude debt being an issue now.



Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
And the debt being built into the deal really hurts this whole Evil Debt Plan argument.
That would make sense if not for the extra money they are now spending on renovations which has nothing to do with the original sale

You think debt = spending freeze?


Boilermaker Rick wrote:
This is just a bunch of rich people using debt to their advantage, and then playing it off to make other excuses and win PR battles. You are a guy who talks about how you don't approve of how Ricketts is running things but even you are also making excuses for him. That is the true secret here. It's quite genius actually. In terms of business strategy, it's pretty impressive.

What?

Im not making excuses. Im just pointing out that you are making all sorts of proclamations about things you dont know to be true.

Here is a fact: Its possible for a family to supply upfront cash to help the purchase of a business without allowing the entire family fortune, or any of it, to be used in the running of the purchase.


Ricketts is not spending any money and that's a problem. Whether its because funds are truly an issue or he's lying is something none of us here knows and it really doesnt matter. Scoreboard. The money isnt being spent.


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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 12:46 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
You're acting like there's an open account with funds for Tom to dip into. What you describe in that extreme example is a safety net of having a family with money. Stepping in to help the business not fail is not the same things as actively investing or supplying funds for the business all along.
There isn't an open account for him to dip into because being in debt is a business strategy that they are using! We agree that the Cubs don't have unlimited access to the family fortune. When you analyze it though, you realize that is being done intentionally and it isn't really debt in the way you and me think about it. They are likely paying incredibly low interest rates and the family is simply choosing to divert funds to other areas where the return will be higher than the amount paid for the loan. It also has the added effect of people apologizing for the lack of product on the field because they are "strapped with debt" when they are choosing to be strapped with debt! If it made financial sense, they'd be paying off the renovations the moment it was due. No loan. No debt.
rogers park bryan wrote:
Would you say Rob Kardashian's dress sock line has all the Kardashian money behind it? That's what the Cubs are, Rick. They are Rob Kardashian's Sock line.
It depends what is the best financial decision to make. They are still choosing to not fund it as they could because there is a better option out there.
rogers park bryan wrote:
Ricketts is not spending any money and that's a problem. Whether its because funds are truly an issue or he's lying is something none of us here knows and it really doesnt matter. Scoreboard. The money isnt being spent.
If it doesn't matter, then why is it brought up so much? Ricketts chooses to have debt. You seem to at least agree with that. So, why should we even acknowledge the Cubs debt situation when it is an intentional business decision designed to make him money while also being an excuse why they have an artificially low payroll?

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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 1:13 pm 
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1. I see very few people not named Dan Bernstein or Ricketts apologizing

2. They are not choosing to be strapped with debt. They were forced into debt. They've chosen to add on to it (possibly because Tom doesnt have the money to front it available to him)

3. You're making all sorts of assumptions and presenting them as facts. For all you know Joe cut him off. I think you are way overvaluing the importance of the Cubs to the Ricketts financial well being. They arent going to lose money on it. I could see Joe not caring.

4. The debt shouldn't be brought up. We agree on that. He spends or he doesnt. That doesnt mean the debt doesnt exist though.


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