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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:32 pm 
conns7901 wrote:
There are mass shootings on a weekly basis in Chicago, my guess is a handful are not right wing conservatives.

When is the House Select Committee being formed on this? We have Benghazi on the South Side every weekend. Or do those Americans not matter?


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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:34 pm 
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Chus wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
As with Chus, I respect you guys but can't believe you're still believing in the righteousness of your party.


I believe that the Democrats are righteous? That's a bit over the top.

The word righteous makes it sound like too much. My point was you believe one party is demonstrably better



And well never get a third party if we say "all we have is two so bthats that"

How bout you, me, FF and Hank Scorpio start a new party built on common sense?


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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:36 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
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Chus your original 4 differences cane off as huge generalizations to me. I dont think you can even apply them to "most"


Aside from that I have zero faith left in either party So with that fundamental difference it'll be hard for you and I to see eye to eye on a lot of political stuff.


We're going to have to disagree as to what constitutes "huge" generalizations. The four he cited are de facto planks in the tea party/republican/conservative platform.

One side believes in global warming. The other thinks it is a hoax, and scientists are lying.
One side encourages voting. The other goes out of its way to suppress minority voters.
One side believes in evolution. The other side wants creationism taught in science class.
One side works with the other when they are not in power. The other has stated their goal is to never work with the president.


In many/most republican primaries (and almost in all that are solidly red jurisdictions), the purity tests are run on these four "issues".

I'll even include a fifth. In the last round of national elections, many republican candidates came out against abortion even in cases of rape/incest or where the mother's own health was at issue. When the wing nut faction of the republican/tea party has seized as much control as they have (especially in southern and/or rural areas), these five assertions aren't generalizations as they are unfortunate fact.

Btw, quit hiding behind the trusty "I have zero faith left in either party" rhetoric. The lines and motives may be blurry in many areas, but crystal clear in many/most others. Own them.

Bullshit

You are a straight team member of the democrats. Don't tell me I'm hiding. I see things as they are instead of thru the lens of "my team" as you do. That's why I'm able to see faults in Obama as I did with Bush, Clinton, and bush

You on the other hand go out of your way to defend the current POTUS, which is bullshit. He's a failure and its not the big bad gop's fault. Its his own fault for writing checks that could obviously never be cashed

I already disproved those assertions being most. You can't have 41% of a group of people believe in creationism and then pretend you're the science party.

And the global warming thing is also untrue. There are deniers in both sides


Actually the parties are the same and have been for a while now. I'm sure that sucks for people who fought for these parties in better times but it remains the truth

The two parties have used a few hot topics to differentiate from one another (abortion, cap punishment etc) but when they make most of the decisions they have themselves and their scumbag Washington friends in mind and that is most definitely both sides.

If you or anyone on either side wants to pretend these politicians are thinking of the people they reoresent that's unfortunate because its just not true.

For an example see ANY Illinois politics in the last 50 years and then tell me Republicans are the only bad guys


As with Chus, I respect you guys but can't believe you're still believing in the righteousness of your party. Might as well believe in the Easter Bunny IMO

But really, I'm not hiding. I truly believe these things and express my political beliefs on a case by case basis (AKA the way it should be) instead of picking a team and arguing for them like a local sports team


RR isn't a fan of President Obama

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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:37 pm 
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conns7901 wrote:
There are mass shootings on a weekly basis in Chicago, my guess is a handful are not right wing conservatives.


Are you really comparing violence in gang territory, to premeditated murders of public figures and innocent bystanders, in broad daylight, with multiple witnesses, and facebook posts warning of such actions?

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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:41 pm 
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Nas wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Chus your original 4 differences cane off as huge generalizations to me. I dont think you can even apply them to "most"


Aside from that I have zero faith left in either party So with that fundamental difference it'll be hard for you and I to see eye to eye on a lot of political stuff.


We're going to have to disagree as to what constitutes "huge" generalizations. The four he cited are de facto planks in the tea party/republican/conservative platform.

One side believes in global warming. The other thinks it is a hoax, and scientists are lying.
One side encourages voting. The other goes out of its way to suppress minority voters.
One side believes in evolution. The other side wants creationism taught in science class.
One side works with the other when they are not in power. The other has stated their goal is to never work with the president.


In many/most republican primaries (and almost in all that are solidly red jurisdictions), the purity tests are run on these four "issues".

I'll even include a fifth. In the last round of national elections, many republican candidates came out against abortion even in cases of rape/incest or where the mother's own health was at issue. When the wing nut faction of the republican/tea party has seized as much control as they have (especially in southern and/or rural areas), these five assertions aren't generalizations as they are unfortunate fact.

Btw, quit hiding behind the trusty "I have zero faith left in either party" rhetoric. The lines and motives may be blurry in many areas, but crystal clear in many/most others. Own them.

Bullshit

You are a straight team member of the democrats. Don't tell me I'm hiding. I see things as they are instead of thru the lens of "my team" as you do. That's why I'm able to see faults in Obama as I did with Bush, Clinton, and bush

You on the other hand go out of your way to defend the current POTUS, which is bullshit. He's a failure and its not the big bad gop's fault. Its his own fault for writing checks that could obviously never be cashed

I already disproved those assertions being most. You can't have 41% of a group of people believe in creationism and then pretend you're the science party.

And the global warming thing is also untrue. There are deniers in both sides


Actually the parties are the same and have been for a while now. I'm sure that sucks for people who fought for these parties in better times but it remains the truth

The two parties have used a few hot topics to differentiate from one another (abortion, cap punishment etc) but when they make most of the decisions they have themselves and their scumbag Washington friends in mind and that is most definitely both sides.

If you or anyone on either side wants to pretend these politicians are thinking of the people they reoresent that's unfortunate because its just not true.

For an example see ANY Illinois politics in the last 50 years and then tell me Republicans are the only bad guys


As with Chus, I respect you guys but can't believe you're still believing in the righteousness of your party. Might as well believe in the Easter Bunny IMO

But really, I'm not hiding. I truly believe these things and express my political beliefs on a case by case basis (AKA the way it should be) instead of picking a team and arguing for them like a local sports team


RR isn't a fan of President Obama

I could certainly be mistaken and will own it if I am but it seems a lot of the Obama thoughts start with caveats about being obstructed. That's being an apologist IMO. All President's face unique challenges, at this level we have to look at the scoreboard


Last edited by rogers park bryan on Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:42 pm 
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Baby McNown wrote:
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Well said.

Theo's a Democrat, btw.

How can he be? Democrats hate Israel.

Honestly I just guessed based on his free agency history.

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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:43 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
The word righteous makes it sound like too much. My point was you believe one party is demonstrably better


I wouldn't say demonstrably, but I do think they are better, especially on social issues. The idea that the Republicans are fiscally conservative is a joke. They hang their hat on that, but it isn't true.


rogers park bryan wrote:
And well never get a third party if we say "all we have is two so bthats that"

How bout you, me, FF and Hank Scorpio start a new party built on common sense?


I'm down, as long as legalizing weed is one of the main goals. The War on Drugs, which is really a war on citizens, especially minorities, is one of the biggest failures of this country, yet it continues.

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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:46 pm 
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RPB he doesn't defend Obama's policies. I believe he tries to point out the hypocrisy. He was a Hillary supporter. We had this discussion earlier this year and he pointed out that neither of us were Obama supporters initially and that our feelings about him in 2007 were right.

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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:48 pm 
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Chus wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
The word righteous makes it sound like too much. My point was you believe one party is demonstrably better


I wouldn't say demonstrably, but I do think they are better, especially on social issues. The idea that the Republicans are fiscally conservative is a joke. They hang their hat on that, but it isn't true

Absolutely correct on Republicans

Dems are the same way with caring about poor people (although ironically I think President Obama might be the rare one who actually cares...but he can't get shit done )

rogers park bryan wrote:
And well never get a third party if we say "all we have is two so bthats that"

How bout you, me, FF and Hank Scorpio start a new party built on common sense?


Chus wrote:
I'm down, as long as legalizing weed is one of the main goals. The War on Drugs, which is really a war on citizens, especially minorities, is one of the biggest failures of this country, yet it continues.

Oh I think that goes without saying. Weed is in. Its Heroin and Meth we gotta talk about with FF


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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:53 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Chus wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
The word righteous makes it sound like too much. My point was you believe one party is demonstrably better


I wouldn't say demonstrably, but I do think they are better, especially on social issues. The idea that the Republicans are fiscally conservative is a joke. They hang their hat on that, but it isn't true

Absolutely correct on Republicans

Dems are the same way with caring about poor people (although ironically I think President Obama might be the rare one who actually cares...but he can't get shit done )

rogers park bryan wrote:
And well never get a third party if we say "all we have is two so bthats that"

How bout you, me, FF and Hank Scorpio start a new party built on common sense?


Chus wrote:
I'm down, as long as legalizing weed is one of the main goals. The War on Drugs, which is really a war on citizens, especially minorities, is one of the biggest failures of this country, yet it continues.

Oh I think that goes without saying. Weed is in. Its Heroin and Meth we gotta talk about with FF

Would it be better to call it adderall and OxyContin? Same shit. It's way more safe for the general public than AR-15's. Look up some of the myths surrounding meth and heroin. It's not good shit but it's not nearly as dark and evil as many have portrayed it.

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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:54 pm 
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I don't know anyone that says climate change isn't happening.
I believe the debate is whether it's man made. We know the climate changed. It is still changing. It it weren't for receding glaciers and warming this region would be covered in ice. The great lakes were carved by glaciers.
I'm a skeptic. That's because most of the predictions have missed. The models have missed.
This isn't politics, it's science.

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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:55 pm 
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Nas wrote:
RPB he doesn't defend Obama's policies. I believe he tries to point out the hypocrisy. He was a Hillary supporter. We had this discussion earlier this year and he pointed out that neither of us were Obama supporters initially and that our feelings about him in 2007 were right.

Well I'm sure Reader will respond with a typically well thought out intelligent post. (Probably the mist consistent poster we have in that regard) and I'll answer him on that

I guess I'm taking some of the Pro Dem Anti Rep stuff and mixing it with Obama's apologists. Like I said I'll take it back and say I was wrong on that if that's true.

But the rest of it about the two parties and supposedly hiding behind being disgusted with both, stands. Its bullshit and borderline lunacy to suggest my stance is not rational at this point in our country's history


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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:59 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:

It's Heroin and Meth we gotta talk about with FF


I would go with decriminalization, and rehab for users, and strict penalties for dealers. These are dangerous drugs, no question about it. Throwing an addict in jail treats the symptom, not the disease. I'm not sure I want to go full legalization with dangerous drugs. It's a slippery slope. We can look to places like Holland and Portugal as a model.

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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:02 pm 
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Meth looks just as bad as it's portrayed.


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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:03 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Look up some of the myths surrounding meth and heroin. It's not good shit but it's not nearly as dark and evil as many have portrayed it.


I have lost two friends to heroin overdoses, so I am going to have to disagree.

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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:06 pm 
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Baby McNown wrote:
conns7901 wrote:
There are mass shootings on a weekly basis in Chicago, my guess is a handful are not right wing conservatives.

When is the House Select Committee being formed on this? We have Benghazi on the South Side every weekend. Or do those Americans not matter?


Their votes are not in danger of switching, therefore no one in power gives a shit.

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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:08 pm 
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Baby McNown wrote:
conns7901 wrote:
There are mass shootings on a weekly basis in Chicago, my guess is a handful are not right wing conservatives.

When is the House Select Committee being formed on this? We have Benghazi on the South Side every weekend. Or do those Americans not matter?

I don't think this is a federal issue.

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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:10 pm 
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I don't know much about heroin and meth


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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:13 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
I don't know much about heroin and meth

Try both and report back.

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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:17 pm 
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Chus wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Look up some of the myths surrounding meth and heroin. It's not good shit but it's not nearly as dark and evil as many have portrayed it.


I have lost two friends to heroin overdoses, so I am going to have to disagree.

I've lost a friend due to opiates and have a family member dealing with issues relating to it also. I'm not claiming these are not harmless drugs. I'm just claiming that they are not significantly more dangerous than alcohol, which I believe has been confirmed by numerous studies on them.

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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:18 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Chus wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Look up some of the myths surrounding meth and heroin. It's not good shit but it's not nearly as dark and evil as many have portrayed it.


I have lost two friends to heroin overdoses, so I am going to have to disagree.

I've lost a friend due to opiates and have a family member dealing with issues relating to it also. I'm not claiming these are not harmless drugs. I'm just claiming that they are not significantly more dangerous than alcohol, which I believe has been confirmed by numerous studies on them.

:?
Yeah, I dunno about that.

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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:23 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Chus wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Look up some of the myths surrounding meth and heroin. It's not good shit but it's not nearly as dark and evil as many have portrayed it.


I have lost two friends to heroin overdoses, so I am going to have to disagree.

I'm just claiming that they are not significantly more dangerous than alcohol, which I believe has been confirmed by numerous studies on them.

Oh man..... :|

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Last edited by spanky on Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:23 pm 
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Yeah, not many people do know about that. But the addiction rate on meth and alcohol is very similar, iirc, as is the death from od ratio. I'll look up the exact studies I'm referencing tomorrow when I'm near a computer and post them here.

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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:25 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Yeah, not many people do know about that. But the addiction rate on meth and alcohol is very similar, iirc, as is the death from od ratio. I'll look up the exact studies I'm referencing tomorrow when I'm near a computer and post them here.

I don't know much about the death "ratio" of either one, but literally 100 million people in America drink alcohol in some form or another, right? I mean, it has to be near that........

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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:39 pm 
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Ff is pulling stuff out of his ass. No way that is true.


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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:46 pm 
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Spaulding wrote:
Ff is pulling stuff out of his ass. No way that is true.

Ok. Just check this thread tomorrow.

What % of people who have tried meth once do you think get addicted to it? I'm curious.

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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:50 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
What % of people who have tried meth once do you think get addicted to it? I'm curious.

I'm guessing it's way less than people who have tried alcohol several times and never got addicted to it.

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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:55 pm 
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spanky wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
What % of people who have tried meth once do you think get addicted to it? I'm curious.

I'm guessing it's way less than people who have tried alcohol several times and never got addicted to it.

http://reason.com/archives/2014/02/23/m ... hs-exposed

Start with this. I'm posting from a phone at work so I'll have the actual studies I'm talking about posted later tonight or tomorrow when I'm at home.

"There is no empirical evidence that suggests that even long-term users of methamphetamine pose a threat to those around them." Hart et al. note that "incredible anecdotes are usually disseminated uncritically by the popular press and accepted as sound evidence by an undiscerning public."

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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:05 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
Ff is pulling stuff out of his ass. No way that is true.

Ok. Just check this thread tomorrow.

What % of people who have tried meth once do you think get addicted to it? I'm curious.


Maybe 10%? There's probably less than 5m people that are meth addicts. It's a fruit to vegetable comparison for a lot of reasons. More people probably fit the definition of alcoholic but I don't think alcoholism is easily defined.


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 Post subject: Re: These Idiots
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:09 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:

"There is no empirical evidence that suggests that even long-term users of methamphetamine pose a threat to those around them." Hart et al. note that "incredible anecdotes are usually disseminated uncritically by the popular press and accepted as sound evidence by an undiscerning public."


So what if they aren't a threat? They are not in good shape, in any aspect of their life.


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