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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:02 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
setting him up to be the bad guy

He already is.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:09 pm 
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immessedup17 wrote:
Rejected 5 years $85M. Fucking idiot. And the Cubs are stupid to even offer that. Trade him yesterday.


Agree. I don't want the Cubs anywhere near that kind of contract for a pitcher. Fuck that guy.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:27 pm 
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Big mistake to reject that, if true.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:38 pm 
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He wants Homer Bailey 100 million plus money. Let someone else give it to him. He'll be lucky to post double digit wins and a sub 4 ERA this year. Fuck him and his overinflated sense of how good he is. Have to move him now .

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:40 pm 
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Unfortunately baseball free agency has little to do with reality especially with pitchers. Some teams are getting smart and not doing these dumbass deals to pitchers particularly over 30.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:51 pm 
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immessedup17 wrote:
Rejected 5 years $85M. Fucking idiot. And the Cubs are stupid to even offer that. Trade him yesterday.


Couldn't agree more

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:38 pm 
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He gone!!!! And Goodbye. Rape the dumbass team that wants this ACE no. 3 at best starter. Good job by the Cub. Now he is the bad guy they tried.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:40 pm 
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immessedup17 wrote:
Rejected 5 years $85M. Fucking idiot. And the Cubs are stupid to even offer that. Trade him yesterday.

I agree with most of this, if true, but I think he'll get more barring injury. He's not an idiot if he just wants max $$.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:46 pm 
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spanky wrote:
immessedup17 wrote:
Rejected 5 years $85M. Fucking idiot. And the Cubs are stupid to even offer that. Trade him yesterday.

I agree with most of this, if true, but I think he'll get more barring injury. He's not an idiot if he just wants max $$.

You are right Spanky he will get it. Just not worth it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:20 am 
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Rozner and Hanley spending 15 minutes this morning talking about trading him then signing him in 1.5 years.

Why would they want to pay him 20+ million per year in 1.5 years any more than they want to pay him that now?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:42 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
Rozner and Hanley spending 15 minutes this morning talking about trading him then signing him in 1.5 years.

Why would they want to pay him 20+ million per year in 1.5 years any more than they want to pay him that now?

Bad thoughts by them. Unsurprising.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:49 am 
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immessedup17 wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Rozner and Hanley spending 15 minutes this morning talking about trading him then signing him in 1.5 years.

Why would they want to pay him 20+ million per year in 1.5 years any more than they want to pay him that now?

Bad thoughts by them. Unsurprising.


Rozner is a full on Cub cheerleader. That is fine. I can handle that type of radio. It's insulting that he is so vehement that he is unbiased.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:51 am 
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spanky wrote:
immessedup17 wrote:
Rejected 5 years $85M. Fucking idiot. And the Cubs are stupid to even offer that. Trade him yesterday.

I agree with most of this, if true, but I think he'll get more barring injury. He's not an idiot if he just wants max $$.
If you adjust for inflation and the total amounts of salaries paid he probably does deserve $20 million a year by any team looking to contend.

That is the tough spot for the Cubs. If they thought they could win the World Series soon they'd be paying it. However, to have a $20 million dollar pitcher doesn't really help a team that isn't all in on winning.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:54 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
Rozner is a full on Cub cheerleader. That is fine. I can handle that type of radio. It's insulting that he is so vehement that he is unbiased.


Yep. Hardcore Cubs and Hawks fan no matter what he says.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:09 pm 
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Big Chicagoan wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
at the moment, I tShields-ishpitches a lot like James Shields, a guy who non championship teams use as their #1

I don't think he is as good as Shields has been or will be. That is what he is in the present

Agreed but I think he'll continue being Shields-


Cubs should sign Shields. That guy can pitch. Samardzija isn't as good, never has been as good, and never will be as good as Shields in any statistical category except age.

Not accurate

Samardzija's career FIP is better and several of his stats this year are better


But neither of them is worth 17 million so whatever


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:12 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Samardzija's career FIP is better and several of his stats this year are better


Can FIP really be better? We're removing a huge part of the game (batted balls) and isolating strikeouts, walks, and homers. That may have some value going forward or it may not, but I would be hesitant to remove so much of the game and hang my hat on what remains as being "better".

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:15 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Samardzija's career FIP is better and several of his stats this year are better


Can FIP really be better? We're removing a huge part of the game (batted balls) and isolating strikeouts, walks, and homers. That may have some value going forward or it may not, but I would be hesitant to remove so much of the game and hang my hat on what remains as being "better".

Well, I think BC was a little over the top on Shields vs Samardzija. Just pointing out that there are stats that favor him.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:19 pm 
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If I had a game to win and it was between choosing Shields or Samardzija to pitch, I'd take Shields every time . Maybe Samardzija will be as good as Arrieta one day.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:47 pm 
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badrogue17 wrote:
If I had a game to win and it was between choosing Shields or Samardzija to pitch, I'd take Shields every time . Maybe Samardzija will be as good as Arrieta one day.


Yep. Shark is super great at everything but winning games for his team.

Too bad.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:53 pm 
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Yesterday, the Cubs reportedly offered Jeff Samardzija a five year, $85 million extension, a deal that would allow him to remain in Chicago rather than get traded at some point in the next five weeks. Samardzija turned it down without even countering, and it’s now basically guaranteed that he’ll end the season in another uniform. Samardzija’s rejection of the Cubs offer does raise an interesting question for interested buyers, though; just how much is he going to cost in order to sign with a team that trades for him?

The Homer Bailey contract is reportedly the benchmark deal that Samardzija’s agents are working off of, which covered $105 million over six seasons. Because Bailey was already in line for a $10 million arbitration payday regardless, the extension was for five free agent years at a total cost of $95 million, but any new deal for Samardzija would buy out his final year of arbitration as well, making the total contract the more relevant figure for comparison. And it would make sense that his agents would use that deal, as it is a very recent deal for a pitcher with a very similar career. Behold.


Name IP BB% K% GB% HR/FB LOB% BABIP ERA- FIP- xFIP-
Jeff Samardzija 655.0 9% 22% 46% 11% 71% 0.298 99 94 97
Homer Bailey 937.2 8% 20% 45% 11% 71% 0.301 107 100 99

Hard to get more similar peripherals than that, though Bailey has pitched a few hundred more innings. If we limit ourselves to recent performance, here is what they’ve done over the last three calendar years.

Name IP BB% K% GB% HR/FB LOB% BABIP ERA- FIP- xFIP- WAR RA9-WAR
Jeff Samardzija 534.1 8% 24% 47% 11% 73% 0.300 92 88 89 8.6 7.3
Homer Bailey 603.2 6% 21% 45% 12% 73% 0.297 102 99 95 7.6 6.9

Again, very similar peripherals, with Samardzija being just a little bit better across the board. Don’t read too much into the somewhat sizable ERA gap, as Samardzija is Example A for why ERA is kind of stupid; he’s already allowed nine “unearned” runs this year, while Bailey hasn’t had any of his runs erased from the record. The earned/unearned distinction is basically useless, and creates the appearance of a separation here where one does not really exist.

Bailey really is a good comparison for Samardzija, and it’s difficult to argue that Samardzija should take less than what Bailey just got a few months ago. However, as we noted at the time, the Bailey deal looks like an overpay, and teams shouldn’t be signing up match that kind of price/performance ratio. While most other +2 to +3 WAR free agent pitchers were signing deals in the range of $50 million, Bailey got twice that, and without being a free agent.

The Bailey deal is an easy one to point to from the player’s perspective, but it’s something of an outlier when it comes to contracts for good-not-great starting pitchers. Samardzija is certainly a cut above the crop of free agents that hit the market last winter, but he’s not Cole Hamels or Zack Greinke, and his track record doesn’t even stack up against Matt Cain. Besides Bailey, the pitchers who have signed $100+ million contracts have been better pitchers than Jeff Samardzija.

And again, Samardzija isn’t going to be a free agent until after next season. If he doesn’t sign a long-term deal, he’s looking at something in the $9 or $10 million range for 2015 salary. While $85 million over five years might sound light, it’s $75 million for four free agent years, or nearly $19 million per season. To get to $100 million over the same term, Samardzija would be asking for the equivalent of $22.5 million for each of his free agent seasons.

There’s a lot of money in baseball these days, but is Jeff Samardzija really a $23 million per year pitcher? Keep in mind that he’s already 29, so such an extension would be buying out his age-31 to age-34 seasons. Samardzija projects as about a +3 WAR pitcher going forward; given normal aging, he’d be expected to be a roughly average pitcher by the time the extension actually kicks in. We’re definitely in a period of inflation in MLB salaries, but average pitchers aren’t going to cost $23 million per year in a couple of years.

Even if you think the current estimates of Samardzija’s talent levels are too conservative, you have to be really bullish on Samardzija to think that he’d be worth $90 million over his first four free agent seasons. Let’s assume that the cost of a win in the 2015 free agent market is $8 million apiece, because we think the league is just going to keep raking in money hand-over-fist. At a $90 million cost for four years, that would require Samardzija to produce roughly +11.25 WAR over those years just to be an average market-value deal.

If Samardzija didn’t decline at all between now and then, and entered that market as a +3 WAR pitcher, we’d expect something like a half WAR per season decline, which leads to a total +9 WAR over the following four seasons: +3.0, +2.5, +2.0, +1.5. To get to +11.25 WAR, you’d need him to not decline at all: +3.0, +2.9, +2.8, +2.6 gets you there. But keep in mind that Samardzija projects at about a +3 WAR pitcher in 2014, and we’re dealing with 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2019. To get that kind of value, you basically need Samardzija to be roughly as good of a pitcher in six years as he is today.

That’s the definition of a terrible bet. If Samardzija thinks his market value is $100 million over five years, then the best thing any team can do is probably let him prove it as a free agent in 18 months. Even the Cubs $85 million offer looks a little bit geneorus, given what Samardzija is, where he is in relation to free agency, and how pitchers age. I think the Cubs may end up pleased that he turned their deal down, as now they’re free to turn him into some good young talent, and they’ll still have that $85 million to go throw at other, almost-as-good free agents if they so choose.

If I’m a team looking to acquire Samardzija, the idea that he’s looking for a Bailey-type deal would cause me to view him as a year-and-a-half rental, not a trade-and-sign guy. The Bailey deal is a good comparison for Samardzija to use because it was a bad deal for the Reds. If he’s set on getting more than the most recent overpay, then there shouldn’t be a lot of teams banging down his door to sign him up long term.

Bernstein's fangraphs arrives to the same conclusions everyone in Chicago could see by watching Shark over 3 years.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:02 pm 
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Shark is getting some bad advice, and it is good for Chicago. Theo and Hoyer would be regretting this signing for years to come. As would the fans.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:06 am 
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immessedup17 wrote:
Shark is getting some bad advice, and it is good for Chicago. Theo and Hoyer would be regretting this signing for years to come. As would the fans.

He'll regret the shit out of not signing if he gets hurt at some point in the next 2 years . I don't blame the guy for taking a chance on himself and looking for as many $$ as possible but he's just not worth the kind of money he thinks he's going to get, at least not to the Cubs. Im quite confident they'll get the same production out of Arrieta over the next 3 years as they would've from Samardzija with about a 90 million dollar savings.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:41 am 
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Homer Bailey was a bad overpay. Mistakes should not be repeated. The market needs to correct.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:44 am 
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immessedup17 wrote:
Homer Bailey was a bad overpay. Mistakes should not be repeated. The market needs to correct.

Thats exactly it. Hopefully thats exactly what Jedstein is telling his agent.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:52 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:24 am 
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badrogue17 wrote:
If I had a game to win and it was between choosing Shields or Samardzija to pitch, I'd take Shields every time . Maybe Samardzija will be as good as Arrieta one day.

Everyone would take Shields.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:27 am 
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immessedup17 wrote:
Shark is getting some bad advice, and it is good for Chicago. Theo and Hoyer would be regretting this signing for years to come. As would the fans.

I dont think it's bad advice.


He's got enough money already that there's no risk of being broke. Unless there is a major change in how pitching is priced, he's going to get more next year, and the team he's on hasnt tried to win for 3 years.


He'd be crazy to TAKE the offer


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:57 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
immessedup17 wrote:
Shark is getting some bad advice, and it is good for Chicago. Theo and Hoyer would be regretting this signing for years to come. As would the fans.

I dont think it's bad advice.

He's got enough money already that there's no risk of being broke. Unless there is a major change in how pitching is priced, he's going to get more next year, and the team he's on hasnt tried to win for 3 years.

He'd be crazy to TAKE the offer

Crazy like a fox.

I actually wonder if he will. Teams have to get smart soon.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:05 am 
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immessedup17 wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
immessedup17 wrote:
Shark is getting some bad advice, and it is good for Chicago. Theo and Hoyer would be regretting this signing for years to come. As would the fans.

I dont think it's bad advice.

He's got enough money already that there's no risk of being broke. Unless there is a major change in how pitching is priced, he's going to get more next year, and the team he's on hasnt tried to win for 3 years.

He'd be crazy to TAKE the offer

Crazy like a fox.

I actually wonder if he will. Teams have to get smart soon.

And as much as he comes off like a douche, I dont think he's dumb.

I believe he'll get 20 mill per


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:33 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
immessedup17 wrote:
Shark is getting some bad advice, and it is good for Chicago. Theo and Hoyer would be regretting this signing for years to come. As would the fans.

I dont think it's bad advice.


He's got enough money already that there's no risk of being broke. Unless there is a major change in how pitching is priced, he's going to get more next year, and the team he's on hasnt tried to win for 3 years.


He'd be crazy to TAKE the offer

I know its not exactly the same thing and he's better than those guys and more likely to get paid but Stephen Drew and Kendrys Morales thought the same thing. At some point the owners are going to stop overpaying. Baileys contract is a warning to them if anything. It'll be interesting to see who signs him for what $$

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