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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:06 pm 
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SpiralStairs wrote:
Even if man had no effect on climate change wouldn't it still be in our best interest as a species to develop and popularize alternative fuel sources?



I am not 100% convinced of anything on this. But I will agree it would not hurt to be cleaner/greener. What I do not agree to is Al Gore getting fat ass rich on it and any sort of UN controls. Some Greenies are so hypocritical.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:44 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
Even if man had no effect on climate change wouldn't it still be in our best interest as a species to develop and popularize alternative fuel sources?



I am not 100% convinced of anything on this. But I will agree it would not hurt to be cleaner/greener. What I do not agree to is Al Gore getting fat ass rich on it and any sort of UN controls. Some Greenies are so hypocritical.


I mean when has it even been good practice to put all our eggs into one basket?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:47 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
Folks don't understand what science really is.


:lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:50 pm 
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SpiralStairs wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Folks don't understand what science really is.


:lol:


:lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:51 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:53 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:55 pm 
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Chus wrote:
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Exactly.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:58 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
Chus wrote:
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Exactly.


He is talking to you.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:06 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:07 pm 
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Chus wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Chus wrote:
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Exactly.


He is talking to you.


I'm well aware of what he is saying Chus. Like I said, it's not my issue that I don't understand what science is. Fell free to re-read the bolded part of pm's post. That's what science is.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:09 pm 
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By that logic, you couldn't draw conclusions about anything. It's a cop out.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:11 pm 
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lipidquadcab wrote:
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:lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:13 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
Chus wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Chus wrote:
Image


Exactly.


He is talking to you.


I'm well aware of what he is saying Chus. Like I said, it's not my issue that I don't understand what science is. Fell free to re-read the bolded part of pm's post. That's what science is.


I'm cool with what Neil Degrasse Tyson and Bill Nye have to say.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:15 pm 
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Seacrest/Chus et al, The question is not what science is or what it is supposed to be. The question is what is done with the result. Independent of this issue the results can be interpreted, massaged or plain out perverted to achieve gains that have nothing to do with science at all. This is especially true if the NASA/NOIDA or whatever inputs are corrupt.

*This post takes no side whatsoever.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:31 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
Seacrest/Chus et al, The question is not what science is or what it is supposed to be. The question is what is done with the result. Independent of this issue the results can be interpreted, massaged or plain out perverted to achieve gains that have nothing to do with science at all. This is especially true if the NASA/NOIDA or whatever inputs are corrupt.

*This post takes no side whatsoever.


So Bill Nye and Neil Tyson are full of shit?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:52 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
By that logic, you couldn't draw conclusions about anything. It's a cop out.


It's not a cop out at all.

There is a method to science.

Science once concluded that the earth was flat. Continual testing and observation over the centuries proved that to be incorrect.

Science is, and will always be, a continuing process.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:54 am 
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Seacrest wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
By that logic, you couldn't draw conclusions about anything. It's a cop out.


It's not a cop out at all.

There is a method to science.

Science once concluded that the earth was flat. Continual testing and observation over the centuries proved that to be incorrect.

Science is, and will always be, a continuing process.
Your thoughts on science would be so much more compelling if you didn't willfully ignore it in things like the vaccines thread.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:59 am 
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Seacrest wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
By that logic, you couldn't draw conclusions about anything. It's a cop out.


It's not a cop out at all.

There is a method to science.

Science once concluded that the earth was flat. Continual testing and observation over the centuries proved that to be incorrect.

Science is, and will always be, a continuing process.


In this thread, the vaccine thread, and I'm sure others, you seem to be of the thinking that Science is always inconclusive. While that may technically be true, there is a point where you have to believe in the science if you're going to make an informed decision. The only alternative is to make a determination against what the science seems to be indicating.

You could sit there and ignore every single thing that the scientific process has indicated simply because the evidence is "inconclusive."

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:59 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
By that logic, you couldn't draw conclusions about anything. It's a cop out.


It's not a cop out at all.

There is a method to science.

Science once concluded that the earth was flat. Continual testing and observation over the centuries proved that to be incorrect.

Science is, and will always be, a continuing process.
Your thoughts on science would be so much more compelling if you didn't willfully ignore it in things like the vaccines thread.


Now Brick, you are being intentionally disingenuous.

You know our youngest son was not vaccinated because his brother suffered a permanent injury after being vaccinated. I clearly stated in the other thread that his other siblings were vaccinated.

And science has so far shown our decision to be the correct one.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:00 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
By that logic, you couldn't draw conclusions about anything. It's a cop out.


It's not a cop out at all.

There is a method to science.

Science once concluded that the earth was flat. Continual testing and observation over the centuries proved that to be incorrect.

Science is, and will always be, a continuing process.


In this thread, the vaccine thread, and I'm sure others, you seem to be of the thinking that Science is always inconclusive. While that may technically be true, there is a point where you have to believe in the science if you're going to make an informed decision. The only alternative is to make a determination against what the science seems to be indicating.

You could sit there and ignore every single thing that the scientific process has indicated simply because the evidence is "inconclusive."


And i'm sure that some people do that.

But that is clearly not the case with how my family goes about living their life.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:07 am 
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Seacrest wrote:
Now Brick, you are being intentionally disingenuous.

You know our youngest son was not vaccinated because his brother suffered a permanent injury after being vaccinated. I clearly stated in the other thread that his other siblings were vaccinated.
I don't want to get personal about your situation, but there were many times when you flat out ignored the science of vaccines. I believe you brought up "How can someone who is vaccinated still get the disease?" point multiple times, even after it was explained. Once again, I'm sorry if you may have had a poor result from a medical procedure but it still doesn't change the fact that you ignored science multiple times in that thread.

The ironic thing is that if you have an actual medical reason for not wanting to give a vaccine, you should be the #1 supporter of wanting everyone else to get vaccinated. For some reason though, you push the ludicrous idea that the human immune system will cure all of these ailments without vaccines(this is one of many ways you ignored science).

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:14 am 
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I'm not commenting on how someone goes about their life. How you choose to live your life is up to you. I'm even torn on the vaccine debate, as I do believe it is your choice whether to vaccinate, but it's a decision that affects others. The problem is when you cite things like the fact that your child who wasn't vaccinated never gets sick or hasn't actually caught measles (or whatever disease). While I'm glad that he hasn't, it is still flawed logic. It's like me saying that I've never had Malaria because I drive a truck. The two aren't necessarily related (and in the case you are explaining, they most likely aren't).

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:16 am 
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Interesting column in the WSJ today about the "science" of computer modeling:

By Robert J. Caprara

The climate debate is heating up again as business leaders, politicians and academics bombard us with the results of computer models that predict costly and dramatic changes in the years ahead. I can offer some insight into the use of computer models for public-policy debates, and a recommendation for the general public.

After earning a master's degree in environmental engineering in 1982, I spent most of the next 10 years building large-scale environmental computer models. My first job was as a consultant to the Environmental Protection Agency. I was hired to build a model to assess the impact of its Construction Grants Program, a nationwide effort in the 1970s and 1980s to upgrade sewer-treatment plants.

The computer model was huge—it analyzed every river, sewer treatment plant and drinking-water intake (the places in rivers where municipalities draw their water) in the country. I'll spare you the details, but the model showed huge gains from the program as water quality improved dramatically. By the late 1980s, however, any gains from upgrading sewer treatments would be offset by the additional pollution load coming from people who moved from on-site septic tanks to public sewers, which dump the waste into rivers. Basically the model said we had hit the point of diminishing returns.

When I presented the results to the EPA official in charge, he said that I should go back and "sharpen my pencil." I did. I reviewed assumptions, tweaked coefficients and recalibrated data. But when I reran everything the numbers didn't change much. At our next meeting he told me to run the numbers again.

After three iterations I finally blurted out, "What number are you looking for?" He didn't miss a beat: He told me that he needed to show $2 billion of benefits to get the program renewed. I finally turned enough knobs to get the answer he wanted, and everyone was happy.

Was the EPA official asking me to lie? I have to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he believed in the value of continuing the program. (Congress ended the grants in 1990.) He certainly didn't give any indications otherwise. I also assume he understood the inherent inaccuracies of these types of models. There are no exact values for the coefficients in models such as these. There are only ranges of potential values. By moving a bunch of these parameters to one side or the other you can usually get very different results, often (surprise) in line with your initial beliefs.

I realized that my work for the EPA wasn't that of a scientist, at least in the popular imagination of what a scientist does. It was more like that of a lawyer. My job, as a modeler, was to build the best case for my client's position. The opposition will build its best case for the counter argument and ultimately the truth should prevail.

If opponents don't like what I did with the coefficients, then they should challenge them. And during my decade as an environmental consultant, I was often hired to do just that to someone else's model. But there is no denying that anyone who makes a living building computer models likely does so for the cause of advocacy, not the search for truth.

Surely the scientific community wouldn't succumb to these pressures like us money-grabbing consultants. Aren't they laboring for knowledge instead of profit? If you believe that, boy do I have a computer model to sell you.

The academic community competes for grants, tenure and recognition; consultants compete for clients. And you should understand that the lines between academia and consultancy are very blurry as many professors moonlight as consultants, authors, talking heads, etc.

Let's be clear: I am not saying this is a bad thing. The legal system is adversarial and for the most part functions well. The same is true for science. So here is my advice: Those who are convinced that humans are drastically changing the climate for the worse and those who aren't should accept and welcome a vibrant, robust back-and-forth. Let each side make its best case and trust that the truth will emerge.

Those who do believe that humans are driving climate change retort that the science is "settled" and those who don't agree are "deniers" and "flat-earthers." Even the president mocks anyone who disagrees. But I have been doing this for a long time, and the one thing I have learned is how hard it is to convince people with a computer model. The vast majority of your audience will never, ever understand the math behind it. This does not mean people are dumb. They usually have great BS detectors, and when they see one side of a debate trying to shut down the other side, they will most likely assume it has something to hide, has the weaker argument, or both.

Eventually I got out of the environmental consulting business. In the 1990s I went into a completely different industry, one that was also data intensive and I thought couldn't be nearly as controversial: health care. But that's another story.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:18 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
I'm not commenting on how someone goes about their life. How you choose to live your life is up to you. I'm even torn on the vaccine debate, as I do believe it is your choice whether to vaccinate, but it's a decision that affects others. The problem is when you cite things like the fact that your child who wasn't vaccinated never gets sick or hasn't actually caught measles (or whatever disease). While I'm glad that he hasn't, it is still flawed logic. It's like me saying that I've never had Malaria because I drive a truck. The two aren't necessarily related (and in the case you are explaining, they most likely aren't).


It's not flawed logic at all.

We take a proactive approach to health by providing him a diet rich in organic foods. We also take him weekly to a chiropractor to be sure that his spine is in alignment giving his body and its immune system, the ability to function at its best.

The approach is based upon science. You may not agree with it, but to say otherwise is to deny science.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:20 am 
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Seacrest wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I'm not commenting on how someone goes about their life. How you choose to live your life is up to you. I'm even torn on the vaccine debate, as I do believe it is your choice whether to vaccinate, but it's a decision that affects others. The problem is when you cite things like the fact that your child who wasn't vaccinated never gets sick or hasn't actually caught measles (or whatever disease). While I'm glad that he hasn't, it is still flawed logic. It's like me saying that I've never had Malaria because I drive a truck. The two aren't necessarily related (and in the case you are explaining, they most likely aren't).


It's not flawed logic at all.

We take a proactive approach to health by providing him a diet rich in organic foods. We also take him weekly to a chiropractor to be sure that his spine is in alignment giving his body and its immune system, the ability to function at its best.

The approach is based upon science. You may not agree with it, but to say otherwise is to deny science.


I didn't comment on organic foods or a chiropractor. I commented on not getting him vaccinated, which you didn't address. And if you tell me it's "science" that not getting vaccinated = a lack of illness, please explain to me where the science is.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:27 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I'm not commenting on how someone goes about their life. How you choose to live your life is up to you. I'm even torn on the vaccine debate, as I do believe it is your choice whether to vaccinate, but it's a decision that affects others. The problem is when you cite things like the fact that your child who wasn't vaccinated never gets sick or hasn't actually caught measles (or whatever disease). While I'm glad that he hasn't, it is still flawed logic. It's like me saying that I've never had Malaria because I drive a truck. The two aren't necessarily related (and in the case you are explaining, they most likely aren't).


It's not flawed logic at all.

We take a proactive approach to health by providing him a diet rich in organic foods. We also take him weekly to a chiropractor to be sure that his spine is in alignment giving his body and its immune system, the ability to function at its best.

The approach is based upon science. You may not agree with it, but to say otherwise is to deny science.


I didn't comment on organic foods or a chiropractor. I commented on not getting him vaccinated, which you didn't address. And if you tell me it's "science" that not getting vaccinated = a lack of illness, please explain to me where the science is.


I addressed the reason for not vaccinating him above.

Diet, exercise and proactively approaching his health has worked. And is a decision we made using the scientific method.

We are still in the middle of testing the hypothesis that the three activities mentioned above would keep him strong and healthy without him being vaccinated.

We are well aware of the fact that this may change in the future. Up til now, the decision to avoid vaccination based upon a male siblings injury has proven to be the correct one.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:31 am 
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Is chiropractic really science? Can a spine really be "adjusted"?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:37 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Is chiropractic really science? Can a spine really be "adjusted"?



It is actual science.

And yes, a spine can be adjusted.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:43 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Is chiropractic really science? Can a spine really be "adjusted"?
There are science elements just like everything in the world has science elements, but no, it is not science.

If Seacrest went to his chiropractor asking for peer reviewed studies proving that his methods are science based he'd be disappointed.

To put it another way, if chiropractors were "science based" they would be actual doctors.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:47 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Is chiropractic really science? Can a spine really be "adjusted"?
There are science elements just like everything in the world has science elements, but no, it is not science.

If Seacrest went to his chiropractor asking for peer reviewed studies proving that his methods are science based he'd be disappointed.

To put it another way, if chiropractors were "science based" they would be actual doctors.



JAMA disagrees.

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