Nobody thought Bonds was a better hitter than Frank prior to 2001. Frank began aging like a normal player and Bonds put up about three seasons the likes of which will never been seen again.

And your view of the players depends on how you see the steroid era. There's a reason Frank got in on the first ballot and Bonds is a pariah. I'm not sure that's the right view. Bonds put up the numbers. They can't be erased.

Another thing that nobody talks about, but that has to be related is the great pitchers in that era. You saw two of them go in yesterday. There are as many Hall of Fame pitchers from the steroid era as there were in the pitcher's era in the 60s. How could that be? Were Maddux, Glavine, Johnson, Clemens, Pedro, etc. superhuman? Okay, well, Clemens is a juicer with the ball instead of one trying to hit it. But as great as those guys were, I don't believe the steroid era and big hitters and numbers hurt them, but rather helped them. All of a sudden the strikeout wasn't an embarrassment for hitters and they began taking a different approach at the plate. You could cut away looking to score three runs at once. In fact, it became silly to do otherwise in an era which destroyed the 13-run pool. And the very best pitchers looked even better because of that.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

Bonds and Griffey were better overall players though. He really has no beef with those guys being stars.

Ya know who kinda ruined the Superherodom of Thomas for me? Albert Pujols.

Id never seen a guy be so consistently good (slump proof) but Pujols did it.


Frank Pujols and Ramirez are the best righties of my lifetime


Also, I think we might be looking a little too deep into Frank's psyche here. Maybe he was just kind of a jerk. They exist.

Well, there are no perfect players. Griffey always had injury issues. Bonds was a good outfielder early in his career but eventually he became more of a liability on defense than Frank and his throwing ever were. He was like a statue in left during those big seasons. Of course it doesn't matter much when you're throwing up 1.300 OPS.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

Yeah, but I don't think anyone ever says that of Frank. Sure, he could be a jerk. Most of us can. He was never my favorite player in spite of how great he was. He always managed to say the wrong thing. Come off as aloof. But I think you saw the real guy yesterday. I liked that he alluded to his strip club era when he talked about meeting his current wife.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

I chuckle at how people are so sure Frank never took PEDs. He probably didn't, but anyone who is certain is fooling themselves. Remember, they didn't just take them to get bigger, they took them to recuperate and bounce back from the tough schedule. Again, probably didn't take any, but anyone who acts so certain he didn't, is just being a meatball.


Anyway, this blew me away. Put in perspective just how great of a hitter he was:


** Frank Thomas: during what would be considered his “peak” – 1991 to 1997 – his AVERAGE season was .330/.452/.604 with 36 HR. Miguel cabrera’s best 7-year run (2008-14): .326/.404/.583 with 35 HR…and didn’t have to deal with strike-shortened seasons. MIggy’s career-high for OBP is .448; Thomas did that in 6 different seasons (5 of which he qualified).

I put him on the same level of suspicion as Greg Maddux.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I dont know how to rank Bonds. People overrate pre Steroid Bonds now.

He was about a .290 hitter with about 35 homers and 100 RBI. That's really good but people act like he was doing 350 50 150 and he just kinda added a little with roids.

He did steal bases and was a good outfielder too. Really good player. He was Griffey Jr with a little less power and a little more stolen base prowess

He was awful in the playoffs (punctuated by the Sid Bream throw)

I don't see how you could be sure. He played SEC football for God's sake! But his career arc is normal like a "clean" player. He didn't suddenly become better at age 34 and continue as a league leader into his 40s.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

Agreed. They're all suspect.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

Kind of a nice blog post from Scott Merkin:

http://scottmerkin.mlblogs.com/2014/07/ ... -of-famer/


Rowand: Meeting a Hall of Famer

You are Aaron Rowand, a 21-year-old first-round draft pick in 1998, having hit .342 with five homers and 32 RBIs with Hickory after joining the White Sox, appearing at your first big league Spring Training in 1999.

Being that it was the first Spring Training he attended of any kind, Rowand arrived in camp about four or five days early. He walked into the White Sox clubhouse, and as Rowand remembered, there was nobody there “but one large individual sitting in the corner” better known as Hall-of-Famer Frank Thomas.

“I was nervous because I had been watching Frank since his rookie year,” said Rowand, who was in Cooperstown this past weekend to celebrate Thomas’ induction. “Going through college, I admired everything that he did and the kind of player he was.

“Obviously he’s Big Hurt. He’s 300 pounds, 6-foot-15 inch individual. He had his head in his locker. I didn’t say anything to him. I sat in my locker, put my stuff in my locker and started unpacking my stuff.”

Rowand was facing the locker, it’s 4 of 5 o’clock in the afternoon. All of a sudden, “I get a big paw on the back of my shoulder. I looked over and up at him.”

“He said, ‘Hey, you had one heck of a year last year. I’m really looking forward to being your teammate. You are going to be up here with us’ and this, that and the other,” said Rowand of his first encounter with Thomas. “Being a 21 year old kid, in a Major League clubhouse, with arguably one of the best players in the game, to have him come up and say something to you, it meant the world to me.

“From that moment on, even through that camp and the other camps that I went through, he was always, always there for a word of encouragement: whether it was how I was supposed to do things, the way the big leaguers do things or where to be so that I’m not on the wrong field, stuff like that.

“It meant the world to me at the time and he’s been one of my closest friends honestly ever since,” Rowand said. “He was a mentor to me from Day 1. Before I ever knew him, he came and introduced himself to me. And obviously the rest speaks for itself, the kind of individual he is and player he was.”

Rowand volunteered this story to illustrate Thomas, the Hall of Fame person.

“To have the honor to be able to play with him for five years, it’s one of the highlights of my career,” Rowand said. “And you are kind of at a loss for words about the kind of person … .

“He’s a big man but his presence is even bigger. It rubs off on people. Like I said, it’s a real honor to be able to be his teammate.”

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I see your point but I think Maddux is the wrong guy


Wood, Prior, Zambrano, Pedro, Schilling

Maddux is the perfect guy.

Insert Maddux for Frank in his post and it is just as valid. Remember, they didn't just take them to get bitter, they took them to recuperate and bounce back from the tough schedule.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I don't think Pujols was/is a juicer either. I know a lot of people do. I think he's a special hitter like Frank. But the difference is Pujols' peak was during the height of the offensive explosion, steroid era, whatever you want to call it. And even if you're a "clean" player- and I'm not even sure what that means- batting in lineup with juiced up guys had to help. The rising tide lifted all boats. Pitchers were working harder, throwing more pitches.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

Fair enough. Id still tend to go with guys who had power in their games.

Those numbers are why I would take him hands down in the Griffey/ Bonds (pre roids) debate if I needed to choose who I'd take if I needed one at bat from a player in their primes
.

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

What about Pujols?

I think that's the closest comparison. Id take Frank (and have a pinch runner ready in case of a BB)

That is where the problem comes in though. It's pretty obvious that PEDs didn't cause Frank to bulk up unless he was taking them when he was 11.

We also have basically found out that pitchers were juicing as much as hitters.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Agree 100%.


Again, not saying it made him a better hitter, or that he was always on them. But to think he never took something to bounce back from a minor injury or something, is a big leap. Even for a guy like Greg or Frank.

Frank got a lot bigger from college til his glory years with Oakland.

He was big at first, but he did get bigger

Anyway, they're all suspect.

He's even bigger today. And I doubt he's taking anything now.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

BTW, Ill throw 96 A Rod in the ring for best I ever saw

That crying was clearly an emotional response to the roids

Steroid guys are like Tom Thayer. The strongest Bear he looked like Kurt Angle during his career. Now he's about your size.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

I was referring to the debate amongst the 3 players mentioned earlier up thread . Frank v Pujols is probably a closer call but I don't think Pujols has Franks eye at the plate so Frank would probably be more likely to extend the inning one way or the other given the one at bat sceneerio

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

It is pretty interesting to look at pictures of some of the Steroid All Stars and Frank. If we lived in a world where PEDs didn't exist, is there any doubt that Frank is much bigger than them?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Yeah, Thayer is friends with a close family friend so Ive seen him at weddings and things thru the years. That is one of the most hilarious before after situations.

Similar Batters

1. Jeff Bagwell (874)
2. Manny Ramirez (865)
3. Fred McGriff (861)
4. Jim Thome (854)
5. MICKEY CHARLES MANTLE (840) ^
6. Gary Sheffield (832)
7. Albert Pujols (822)
8. Carlos Delgado (812)
9. Willie McCovey (812) ^
10. Jimmie Foxx (810) ^

^ - Signifies Hall of Famer


http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/thomafr04.shtml

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

Most Similar Batters: By Age

23. Hank Greenberg (950) ^
24. Don Hurst (952)
25. Will Clark (936)
26. Hank Greenberg (934) ^
27. Hank Greenberg (929) ^
28. Hank Greenberg (924) ^
29. Todd Helton (905)
30. Manny Ramirez (906)
31. Jeff Bagwell (904)
32. Jeff Bagwell (905)
33. Jeff Bagwell (917)
34. Jeff Bagwell (917)
35. Jeff Bagwell (913)
36. Carlos Delgado (881)
37. David Ortiz (897)
38. Fred McGriff (867)
39. Fred McGriff (859)
40. Fred McGriff (861)

^ - Signifies Hall of Famer

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

Thayer would be seeking out @SQN Events if he ever tied the knot no?

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.