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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:12 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Gillaspie's offensive production would place him 19th among leftfielders.

CORE!

More like starter. And if he can catch a fly ball a drastic defensive improvement over what's there now.

Nobody cares about cores except for mopes on the internet. Do I really care if someone is a member of some fantasy core? Does being a part of a core amplify a players value as opposed to players not in THE CORE? Can a 4 WAR player who's 34 be in the core, or does it have to be a 23 year old with a 40% k rate but lotsa tools?


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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:14 am 
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I'm convinced! The White Sox will win the next 5 World Series!

God Bless America!!!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:15 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
I'm convinced! The White Sox will win the next 5 World Series!
Who has said anything even close to that?

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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:15 am 
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I don't care about "core" either. just some term to make fans of shitty teams feel better.

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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:16 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
his arm is gonna fall off sometime in the next five years. build around that.


Odds are that a pitcher will need surgery sometime in their career. Don't be the angry cub fan guy that throws out stupid comments. His arm is fine and he may be the best pitcher in the AL.


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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:18 am 
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Juiced wrote:
Odds are that a pitcher will need surgery sometime in their career. .


Exactly my point! That's the foundation all your hopes and dreams are built upon?

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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:19 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
I don't care about "core" either. just some term to make fans of shitty teams feel better.

Then quit trying to argue what is or isn't a core.


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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:21 am 
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Sometimes I can't help myself when I see bad thoughts.

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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:22 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
I'm convinced! The White Sox will win the next 5 World Series!
Who has said anything even close to that?

C - covered
SP - Sale=Quinta=Rodon, x, x
1B - MVP
2B - 3 80 tool guys
SS - 4 WAR SS
3B - Problem
LF - Gillaspie
CF - Eaton/T. Anderson
RF - Doesn't Need to Be Great
DH - Don't Need One!
Bullpen - euthanized!

I appreciate him finally answering what Hahn's vision is. A team with 10 positions covered and 3 young Cy Young candidates should be in contention for a WS for the next 5 years. Bullpens can be built on the fly.


Last edited by Kirkwood on Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:24 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Juiced wrote:
Odds are that a pitcher will need surgery sometime in their career. .


Exactly my point! That's the foundation all your hopes and dreams are built upon?


NO NO NO NO... don't quote me to support your argument. I find you worthless for my worthwhile words.


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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:25 am 
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I appreciate Kirkwood just making stuff up in order to troll Sox and Bears fans. It was pretty good at first, but now you are like Jordan on the Wizards. Its ugly, and painful to watch. Just a matter of when and not if you flame out for good.

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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:26 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
I appreciate Kirkwood just making stuff up in order to troll Sox and Bears fans. It was pretty good at first, but now you are like Jordan on the Wizards. Its ugly, and painful to watch. Just a matter of if and not when you flame out for good.

Those were all things America has said in the thread. Don't be catty


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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:27 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
I'm convinced! The White Sox will win the next 5 World Series!
Who has said anything even close to that?

C - covered
SP - Sale=Quinta=Rodon, x, x
1B - MVP
2B - 3 80 tool guys
SS - 4 WAR SS
3B - Problem
LF - Gillaspie
CF - Eaton/T. Anderson
RF - Doesn't Need to Be Great
Bullpen - euthanized!

I appreciate him finally answering what Hahn's vision is. A team with 10 positions covered and 3 young Cy Young candidates should be in contention for a WS for the next 5 years. Bullpens can be built on the fly.

Would it help your reading comprehension if I rewrote everything with a crayon and some cardboard paper?


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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:28 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
I appreciate Kirkwood just making stuff up in order to troll Sox and Bears fans. It was pretty good at first, but now you are like Jordan on the Wizards. Its ugly, and painful to watch. Just a matter of when and not if you flame out for good.


Image


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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:37 am 
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Juiced wrote:
Odds are that a pitcher will need surgery sometime in their career.



Is that a fact? Can you tell us the actual odds?

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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:37 am 
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America wrote:
C: Flowers is a starting catcher in today's MLB.


America wrote:
1B: MVP candidate


America wrote:
2B: Ever heard of Marcus Semien? I get that prospects aren't 100% locks but if you're gonna plug one in Semien is a very good option. Carlos Sanchez is liked by some people too, I'm not one of them but he's 22 and did very well for himself in AAA this year. Then there's Micah Johnson, who grades an 80 tool (rare). 2B has the most depth of any position in the Sox farm.


America wrote:
3B: Is a problem


America wrote:
SS: Alexei Ramirez is a 31 year old All Star SS who deserved it.


America wrote:
LF: Depends if this is where Gillaspie plays next season. As of now it's a black hole, but the nice thing about LF is anyone can step in and ply it.


America wrote:
CF: Eaton can play, but if health really derails his career CF is the position Tim Anderson (and his ALARMING K/BB RATE OH GOD) will eventually settle in at. Giving Anderson a shot is an acceptable use of the CF position in 2016.


America wrote:
RF: He doesn't need to be great.


America wrote:
DH: Who cares?


America wrote:
Sale/Q: Are closer than you'd think.


America wrote:
Rodon: Control worrisome? Are you daft?The worry with Rodon is if his changeup can miss MLB bats and whether his asshole coaches at NC State killed his arm, not his control. Nobody worries seriously about his control.


America wrote:
The bullpen should all be euthanized.


I understood you. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:40 am 
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Kirkwood is having another one of his breakdowns.

I don't see where he is saying that means they will win 5 World Series.

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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:50 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

Is that a fact? Can you tell us the actual odds?


well 36% of MLB pitchers have had TJ surgery AND have recovered well enough to keep pitching in the big leagues. What about all the pitchers that had the surgery but couldn't keep pitching in the big leagues? Then add all the shoulder surgeries and whatever else there is, and I'd say over 50% of pitchers must have surgery at some point.

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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:53 am 
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I know there have been a lot of pitchers that have had Tommy John surgery, but there is no way that 36% of MLB pitchers have had this done.

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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:54 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Kirkwood is having another one of his breakdowns.

I don't see where he is saying that means they will win 5 World Series.

Sorry, I'm extrapolating. I'm jealous that the White Sox have completed their rebuild already.


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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:55 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
I know there have been a lot of pitchers that have had Tommy John surgery, but there is no way that 36% of MLB pitchers have had this done.


you really want to stick with that assertion? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:56 am 
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:lol: Kirkwood, you are starting to rival Elmhurst Steve for worst baseball thoughts on here. At least we know he isn't to be taken seriously. However, you are moving right along side him and-- at this rate-- might even pass him today.

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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:57 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
I know there have been a lot of pitchers that have had Tommy John surgery, but there is no way that 36% of MLB pitchers have had this done.

Sounds right to me


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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:58 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Kirkwood is having another one of his breakdowns.

I don't see where he is saying that means they will win 5 World Series.

Sorry, I'm extrapolating. I'm jealous that the White Sox have completed their rebuild already.
I don't really know what your angle is here. For all your whining about how the Cubs fans are treated, you are being quite the hypocrite here.

The Sox do seem to have a plausible path towards competitiveness. That is all that is being said here.

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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:59 am 
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So you guys are claiming that over a third of pitchers who have thrown in MLB this season have had tommy john surgery?

Sorry I don't believe that for a second until I am shown otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:01 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
So you guys are claiming that over a third of pitchers who have thrown in MLB this season have had tommy john surgery?

Sorry I don't believe that for a second until I am shown otherwise.

The Alarming Increase in MLB Pitchers Who've Had Tommy John Surgery
By Will Carroll , Sports Injuries Lead Writer Jul 17, 2013

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The Alarming Increase in MLB Pitchers Who've Had Tommy John Surgery
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One-third of current MLB pitchers have had Tommy John surgery. Of the about 360 who started the season, 124 share the all-too-familiar triangular scar.

How surprising is this number? It stunned me! In recent talks with baseball officials, none guessed more than the one-in-nine number I had often seen quoted over the last decade (and quoted myself). Worse, none of us had any idea when this change had happened or noticed the acceleration.

With the help of research assistants, I arrived at the number 124 by going through current rosters and searching news reports for each pitcher, looking to see if he had had Tommy John. The players are listed in this PDF, along with the year of their most recent surgery (players with italicized years have had more than one elbow reconstruction). For a different look at all the names, check out the illustration below.

Why is the number so high? Among the top doctors in sports today, there are theories. It starts with the top reason cited by Dr. Frank Jobe, the creator of Tommy John surgery.

"Overuse," he said plainly.

Bleacher Report's tabulation of current pitchers who've had Tommy John is part of a package of stories about the surgery and Jobe, who will be honored at the Baseball Hall of Fame ceremonies in late July. Also in the package are the history and legacy of Jobe and Tommy John, a detailed look at the realities and myths of the surgery and profiles of notable cases over the past four decades.


John Smoltz is one of the most notable beneficiaries of Tommy John surgery.
While pitch counts and innings totals during the season have gone down over the last 40 years, since Jobe first did the procedure, year-round pitching at youth levels has increased dramatically. Renowned sports surgeon Dr. James Andrews often points to this lack of rest as a major reason for the increase in surgeries. His program calls for two or three months off from throwing, though he encourages participation in other sports.

Across sports medicine, almost all doctors agree that this is an overuse problem that starts at a young age. Dr. Tim Kremchek performed Tommy John surgery on two pitchers who had gone to the Little League World Series the previous season. At just 14 years old, these young athletes surely enjoyed reaching the peak of the Little League game, but at what cost for the effort it took to get there?

The push of surgeries to younger pitchers is also creating more time for reconstructed ligaments to fail, making more surgery necessary.

Rob Carr/Getty Images
Research I did in 2006 led me to the concept of the "Tommy John honeymoon." I found that five years after surgery, there were very few additional elbow problems, which indicated the transplanted ligament was stronger. Further research showed that the process called ligamentization was at work.

However, after the five-year period, the tendon becomes a normal ligament, subject to the same kind of overuse injuries. With so many pitchers getting a first surgery, often when they're quite young, there's a greater chance a second surgery will be necessary.

Just last season, former elite closers Joakim Soria and Brian Wilson underwent second surgeries. Pitchers have undergone third, fourth and even fifth Tommy John surgeries, though these are very rare.

The increase in the procedure comes down to the availability of a workable procedure that keeps younger pitchers in the game. A generation ago, most pitchers with elbow problems were forced out of the game.

It is clear the game is better because of a miraculous surgery that nearly guarantees the return of pitchers who would have been done otherwise. What is equally clear is baseball as a whole has no idea how to stop this rapid acceleration of arm injuries. The number 124 is proof.


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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:02 pm 
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Then I stand corrected. That is insane.

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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:06 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Then I stand corrected. That is insane.

It's essentially getting a new arm for 3 or 4 years.


I guess it makes sense since pitching is a ridiculously unnatural motion.


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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:31 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
So you guys are claiming that over a third of pitchers who have thrown in MLB this season have had tommy john surgery?

Sorry I don't believe that for a second until I am shown otherwise.

The Alarming Increase in MLB Pitchers Who've Had Tommy John Surgery
By Will Carroll , Sports Injuries Lead Writer Jul 17, 2013

SHARE
TWEET
NEXT ARTICLE »Use your ← → (arrow) keys to browse more stories
The Alarming Increase in MLB Pitchers Who've Had Tommy John Surgery
19.7K
Reads
12
Comments
One-third of current MLB pitchers have had Tommy John surgery. Of the about 360 who started the season, 124 share the all-too-familiar triangular scar.

How surprising is this number? It stunned me! In recent talks with baseball officials, none guessed more than the one-in-nine number I had often seen quoted over the last decade (and quoted myself). Worse, none of us had any idea when this change had happened or noticed the acceleration.

With the help of research assistants, I arrived at the number 124 by going through current rosters and searching news reports for each pitcher, looking to see if he had had Tommy John. The players are listed in this PDF, along with the year of their most recent surgery (players with italicized years have had more than one elbow reconstruction). For a different look at all the names, check out the illustration below.

Why is the number so high? Among the top doctors in sports today, there are theories. It starts with the top reason cited by Dr. Frank Jobe, the creator of Tommy John surgery.

"Overuse," he said plainly.

Bleacher Report's tabulation of current pitchers who've had Tommy John is part of a package of stories about the surgery and Jobe, who will be honored at the Baseball Hall of Fame ceremonies in late July. Also in the package are the history and legacy of Jobe and Tommy John, a detailed look at the realities and myths of the surgery and profiles of notable cases over the past four decades.


John Smoltz is one of the most notable beneficiaries of Tommy John surgery.
While pitch counts and innings totals during the season have gone down over the last 40 years, since Jobe first did the procedure, year-round pitching at youth levels has increased dramatically. Renowned sports surgeon Dr. James Andrews often points to this lack of rest as a major reason for the increase in surgeries. His program calls for two or three months off from throwing, though he encourages participation in other sports.

Across sports medicine, almost all doctors agree that this is an overuse problem that starts at a young age. Dr. Tim Kremchek performed Tommy John surgery on two pitchers who had gone to the Little League World Series the previous season. At just 14 years old, these young athletes surely enjoyed reaching the peak of the Little League game, but at what cost for the effort it took to get there?

The push of surgeries to younger pitchers is also creating more time for reconstructed ligaments to fail, making more surgery necessary.

Rob Carr/Getty Images
Research I did in 2006 led me to the concept of the "Tommy John honeymoon." I found that five years after surgery, there were very few additional elbow problems, which indicated the transplanted ligament was stronger. Further research showed that the process called ligamentization was at work.

However, after the five-year period, the tendon becomes a normal ligament, subject to the same kind of overuse injuries. With so many pitchers getting a first surgery, often when they're quite young, there's a greater chance a second surgery will be necessary.

Just last season, former elite closers Joakim Soria and Brian Wilson underwent second surgeries. Pitchers have undergone third, fourth and even fifth Tommy John surgeries, though these are very rare.

The increase in the procedure comes down to the availability of a workable procedure that keeps younger pitchers in the game. A generation ago, most pitchers with elbow problems were forced out of the game.

It is clear the game is better because of a miraculous surgery that nearly guarantees the return of pitchers who would have been done otherwise. What is equally clear is baseball as a whole has no idea how to stop this rapid acceleration of arm injuries. The number 124 is proof.


Thanks RPB. JORR will find something wrong with this article and keep giving idiotic examples of why he thinks he is correct.


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 Post subject: Re: Hahn's Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:31 pm 
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Juiced wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
So you guys are claiming that over a third of pitchers who have thrown in MLB this season have had tommy john surgery?

Sorry I don't believe that for a second until I am shown otherwise.

The Alarming Increase in MLB Pitchers Who've Had Tommy John Surgery
By Will Carroll , Sports Injuries Lead Writer Jul 17, 2013

SHARE
TWEET
NEXT ARTICLE »Use your ← → (arrow) keys to browse more stories
The Alarming Increase in MLB Pitchers Who've Had Tommy John Surgery
19.7K
Reads
12
Comments
One-third of current MLB pitchers have had Tommy John surgery. Of the about 360 who started the season, 124 share the all-too-familiar triangular scar.

How surprising is this number? It stunned me! In recent talks with baseball officials, none guessed more than the one-in-nine number I had often seen quoted over the last decade (and quoted myself). Worse, none of us had any idea when this change had happened or noticed the acceleration.

With the help of research assistants, I arrived at the number 124 by going through current rosters and searching news reports for each pitcher, looking to see if he had had Tommy John. The players are listed in this PDF, along with the year of their most recent surgery (players with italicized years have had more than one elbow reconstruction). For a different look at all the names, check out the illustration below.

Why is the number so high? Among the top doctors in sports today, there are theories. It starts with the top reason cited by Dr. Frank Jobe, the creator of Tommy John surgery.

"Overuse," he said plainly.

Bleacher Report's tabulation of current pitchers who've had Tommy John is part of a package of stories about the surgery and Jobe, who will be honored at the Baseball Hall of Fame ceremonies in late July. Also in the package are the history and legacy of Jobe and Tommy John, a detailed look at the realities and myths of the surgery and profiles of notable cases over the past four decades.


John Smoltz is one of the most notable beneficiaries of Tommy John surgery.
While pitch counts and innings totals during the season have gone down over the last 40 years, since Jobe first did the procedure, year-round pitching at youth levels has increased dramatically. Renowned sports surgeon Dr. James Andrews often points to this lack of rest as a major reason for the increase in surgeries. His program calls for two or three months off from throwing, though he encourages participation in other sports.

Across sports medicine, almost all doctors agree that this is an overuse problem that starts at a young age. Dr. Tim Kremchek performed Tommy John surgery on two pitchers who had gone to the Little League World Series the previous season. At just 14 years old, these young athletes surely enjoyed reaching the peak of the Little League game, but at what cost for the effort it took to get there?

The push of surgeries to younger pitchers is also creating more time for reconstructed ligaments to fail, making more surgery necessary.

Rob Carr/Getty Images
Research I did in 2006 led me to the concept of the "Tommy John honeymoon." I found that five years after surgery, there were very few additional elbow problems, which indicated the transplanted ligament was stronger. Further research showed that the process called ligamentization was at work.

However, after the five-year period, the tendon becomes a normal ligament, subject to the same kind of overuse injuries. With so many pitchers getting a first surgery, often when they're quite young, there's a greater chance a second surgery will be necessary.

Just last season, former elite closers Joakim Soria and Brian Wilson underwent second surgeries. Pitchers have undergone third, fourth and even fifth Tommy John surgeries, though these are very rare.

The increase in the procedure comes down to the availability of a workable procedure that keeps younger pitchers in the game. A generation ago, most pitchers with elbow problems were forced out of the game.

It is clear the game is better because of a miraculous surgery that nearly guarantees the return of pitchers who would have been done otherwise. What is equally clear is baseball as a whole has no idea how to stop this rapid acceleration of arm injuries. The number 124 is proof.


Thanks RPB. JORR will find something wrong with this article and keep giving idiotic examples of why he thinks he is correct.



Correct about what? I made no statement in this thread. You do know the difference between a statement and a question, don't you? Fuckin' dumbass.

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