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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:48 pm 
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Hank Scorpio wrote:
Yes by forcing higher prices on us. And then when the cost of a golf shirt at Target is getting close to a Ralph Lauren shirt at Macy's, Macy's will raise their price accordingly. Everything, everywhere will go up.
It wouldn't though. It really wouldn't. Why do you think today's rates are optimal? Prices are set based on a decision everyone makes between quality and cost. When you take out the massive subsidy of the workforce you start to see that the higher quality stuff is a better deal.
Hank Scorpio wrote:
Try raising the min wage slowly and then I think you can make companies adjust. Doubling it is a economic disaster.
Well, even I am not saying do it overnight. Something like $10 an hour now. $12 an hour in a year. Then add a $1 every year until you get to $15.
Hank Scorpio wrote:
And again to clarify, I dont care if Wal-Mart goes out of business or if the 5th generation Walton cant get as big of a boat but I do care about paying more for essential items like food and clothing. A raise in the min wage causes prices to go up for everyone and that only hurts the poor and middle class.
Prices would go up somewhat but there is a natural ceiling that the cheap places need to stay at to beat out the better but more expensive options.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:49 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Big Chicagoan wrote:
Raising minimum wage will raise the wage for all workers and not just those at Walmart and McDonalds. Workers at full-time positions that make more than today's minimum wage will all get raises to continue to be in line with the new minimum wage. Mom and Pop shops will have to raise the wage of all their employees, ect.

This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. The cost of labor in every single business in this country will rise at the same percentage as the minimum wage. Every company in the US cannot just write that off or go out of business.

Another good point that seems lost on many (not here necessarily)


It seems like blue collar guy who makes 17 and hour thinks he's gonna stay at 17 while the McDonalds cook makes 15.


Not the case


BTW, side note, dont apprentices in many trades start out at 15/hour?

And many times they are untrained and essentially digging ditches to start right?

Why is that ok?


It is a good point and it blows holes in your argument... So now a dental assistant that makes $18 an hour is going to need more money. Do you think the dentist is going to stop making more money to pay his employee extra, no he passes it along. The skilled trades goes up so know the cost of a good HVAC guy goes up when your AC is out. Is Darko's company going to make less money to pay him more? No they pass it along to you. Again raising the min wage raises prices for everything, everywhere.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:50 pm 
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Hank Scorpio wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Of course they don't want decreased profits but who cares what they want? They will adjust. If the minimum wage raised, Macy's and other higher end stores still force them to be cheaper.


Yes by forcing higher prices on us. And then when the cost of a golf shirt at Target is getting close to a Ralph Lauren shirt at Macy's, Macy's will raise their price accordingly. Everything, everywhere will go up.

Try raising the min wage slowly and then I think you can make companies adjust. Doubling it is a economic disaster.

Quite the opposite. The slow build would do very little to affect anything. If your point is to raise wages at a slow enough rate so that companies can adjust and pass along the cost, what's the point?

The whole point is the workers need to be paid more compared with what prices are RIGHT NOW

And no, every company in the world is not going to double their prices. That's not realistic.

Realistically the cost of the raise would be split between modest price hikes, corporate waste (could probably flip the whole bill right there) and creative accounting.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:51 pm 
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Hank Scorpio wrote:
This is correct. And do you think the people in power are going to voluntarily make less money?!?! It's not the real world. It sucks and I wish it werent that way but it is...

Burger King, Hardees any fast food place isnt going to make less money to try to ride out McDonald's price increase. They cant afford to. They will all raise prices together.
Fast food would get hurt pretty badly across the whole industry but that is a good thing.

However, they'd basically then just have to compete with a local restaurant serving lunch meaning they'd have to provide higher quality food.

So, we should continue to subsidize up to 50% of every fast food workers salaries because we are worried that Burger King will raise prices?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:51 pm 
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Hank Scorpio wrote:
Nas wrote:
Raising the minimum wage isn't the answer. People in companies that make a lot would have to make less. In not the pie won't change. You have to take from one group and give to others. Just the reverse of what has happened for the past 50 years.


This is correct. And do you think the people in power are going to voluntarily make less money?!?! It's not the real world. It sucks and I wish it werent that way but it is...

Burger King, Hardees any fast food place isnt going to make less money to try to ride out McDonald's price increase. They cant afford to. They will all raise prices together.


They may have to when $7.50 an hour is no longer enough to buy their goods. It's better to get something than it is to get zero.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:52 pm 
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Hank Scorpio wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Big Chicagoan wrote:
Raising minimum wage will raise the wage for all workers and not just those at Walmart and McDonalds. Workers at full-time positions that make more than today's minimum wage will all get raises to continue to be in line with the new minimum wage. Mom and Pop shops will have to raise the wage of all their employees, ect.

This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. The cost of labor in every single business in this country will rise at the same percentage as the minimum wage. Every company in the US cannot just write that off or go out of business.

Another good point that seems lost on many (not here necessarily)


It seems like blue collar guy who makes 17 and hour thinks he's gonna stay at 17 while the McDonalds cook makes 15.


Not the case


BTW, side note, dont apprentices in many trades start out at 15/hour?

And many times they are untrained and essentially digging ditches to start right?

Why is that ok?


It is a good point and it blows holes in your argument... So now a dental assistant that makes $18 an hour is going to need more money. Do you think the dentist is going to stop making more money to pay his employee extra, no he passes it along. The skilled trades goes up so know the cost of a good HVAC guy goes up when your AC is out. Is Darko's company going to make less money to pay him more? No they pass it along to you. Again raising the min wage raises prices for everything, everywhere.

No, it doesnt at all.

Im trying to be nice here but you're just off your rocker. There is no possible way that all companies could double their prices and people stand for it.

This is all basic supply and demand. You seem to think the market is based on what Corporations want to make. Its not. Its supply and demand.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:54 pm 
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Big Chicagoan wrote:
Raising minimum wage will raise the wage for all workers and not just those at Walmart and McDonalds. Workers at full-time positions that make more than today's minimum wage will all get raises to continue to be in line with the new minimum wage. Mom and Pop shops will have to raise the wage of all their employees, ect.

This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. The cost of labor in every single business in this country will rise at the same percentage as the minimum wage. Every company in the US cannot just write that off or go out of business.

Getting people out of poverty will take more than giving people more money. It will require changing the thinking of not just everyone below the poverty line, but also the way society feels about poverty. That will not happen in today's world.


I completely agree.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:54 pm 
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Hank Scorpio wrote:
It is a good point and it blows holes in your argument... So now a dental assistant that makes $18 an hour is going to need more money. Do you think the dentist is going to stop making more money to pay his employee extra, no he passes it along. The skilled trades goes up so know the cost of a good HVAC guy goes up when your AC is out. Is Darko's company going to make less money to pay him more? No they pass it along to you. Again raising the min wage raises prices for everything, everywhere.
The problem with this point is that even if what you describe happens in the worst case scenario, we are simply at the exact same place we were, but the true high earners still do get hurt since it's not like the dentist making $200k suddenly jumps up to $400k.

Even your scenario puts us in the same situation we are in now and I think it's fairly obvious that it wouldn't result in everything doubling.

As I've pointed out multiple times, there is a reason certain companies spend so much money fighting against ANY minimum wage increase. They clearly fear it for some reason.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:55 pm 
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If this were to occur there is no way right now you can convince that prices don't go skyrocketing immediately.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:55 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Prices would go up somewhat but there is a natural ceiling that the cheap places need to stay at to beat out the better but more expensive options.

Apparently Hank will pay literally whatever they tell him.

There is no competition in Hank's America. If Walmart says a polo costs 150 dollars than that's the cost and we have to pay it


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:56 pm 
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Hawg Ass wrote:
If this were to occur there is no way right now you can convince that prices don't go skyrocketing immediately.

You think all companies will agree to simlutaneoulsy raise prices

No one would see that as an opportunity to steal market share by keeping their prices fair?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:57 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Hawg Ass wrote:
If this were to occur there is no way right now you can convince that prices don't go skyrocketing immediately.

You think all companies will agree to simlutaneoulsy raise prices

No one would see that as an opportunity to steal market share by keeping their prices fair?

How can you steal the market if you can't afford to produce the product because wages across the board will increase exponentially?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:57 pm 
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From the department of Labor


Minimum Wage Mythbusters
Myth: Raising the minimum wage will only benefit teens.
Not true: The typical minimum wage worker is not a high-school student earning weekend pocket money. In fact, 88 percent of those who would benefit from a federal minimum wage increase are age 20 or older, and 55 percent are women.


Myth: Increasing the minimum wage will cause people to lose their jobs.
Not true: A review of 64 studies on minimum wage increases found no discernable effect on employment. Additionally, more than 600 economists, seven of them Nobel Prize winners in economics, have signed onto a letter in support of raising the minimum wage to $10.10 by 2016.


Myth: Small business owners can't afford to pay their workers more, and therefore don't support an increase in the minimum wage.
Not true: A June 2014 survey found that more than 3 out of 5 small business owners support increasing the minimum wage to $10.10. Small business owners believe that a higher minimum wage would benefit business in important ways: 58% say raising the minimum wage would increase consumer purchasing power. 56% say raising the minimum wage would help the economy. In addition, 53% agree that with a higher minimum wage, businesses would benefit from lower employee turnover, increased productivity and customer satisfaction.


Myth: Raising the federal tipped minimum wage ($2.13 per hour since 1991) would hurt restaurants.
Not true: In California, employers are required to pay servers the full minimum wage of $9 per hour - before tips. Even with a recent increase in the minimum wage, the National Restaurant Association projects California restaurant sales will outpace the U.S. average in 2014.


Myth: Raising the federal tipped minimum wage ($2.13 per hour since 1991) would lead to restaurant job losses.
Not true: Employers in San Francisco must pay tipped workers the full minimum wage of $10.74 per hour – before tips. Yet, the San Francisco restaurant industry has experienced positive job growth over the past few years according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.


Myth: Raising the federal minimum wage won't benefit workers in states where the hourly minimum rate is already higher than the federal minimum.
Not true: Only 23 states and the District of Columbia currently have a minimum wage higher than the federal minimum, meaning a majority of states have an hourly minimum rate at or below the federal minimum. Increasing the federal minimum wage will boost the earnings for some 28 million low-wage workers nationwide. That includes workers in those states already earning above the current federal minimum. Raising the federal minimum wage is an important part of strengthening the economy. A raise for minimum wage earners will put more money in more families' pockets, which will be spent on goods and services, stimulating economic growth locally and nationally.


Myth: Younger workers don't have to be paid the minimum wage.
Not true: While there are some exceptions, employers are generally required to pay at least the federal minimum wage. Exceptions allowed include a minimum wage of $4.25 per hour for young workers under the age of 20, but only during their first 90 consecutive calendar days of employment with an employer, and as long as their work does not displace other workers. After 90 consecutive days of employment or the employee reaches 20 years of age, whichever comes first, the employee must receive the current federal minimum wage or the state minimum wage, whichever is higher. There are programs requiring federal certification that allow for payment of less than the full federal minimum wage, but those programs are not limited to the employment of young workers.


Myth: Restaurant servers don't need to be paid the minimum wage since they receive tips.
Not true: An employer can pay a tipped employee as little as $2.13 per hour in direct wages, but only if that amount plus tips equal at least the federal minimum wage and the worker retains all tips and customarily and regularly receives more than $30 a month in tips. Often, an employee's tips combined with the employer's direct wages of at least $2.13 an hour do not equal the federal minimum hourly wage. When that occurs, the employer must make up the difference. Some states have minimum wage laws specific to tipped employees. When an employee is subject to both the federal and state wage laws, he or she is entitled to the provisions of each law which provides the greater benefits.


Myth: Only part-time workers are paid the minimum wage.
Not true: About 53 percent of all minimum wage earners are full-time workers, and minimum wage workers contributed almost half (46 percent) of their household's wage and salary income in 2011. Moreover, more than 88 percent of those who would benefit from raising the federal minimum wage from $7.25 to $10.10 are working adults, and 55 percent are working women.


Myth: Increasing the minimum wage is bad for businesses.
Not true: Academic research has shown that higher wages sharply reduce employee turnover which can reduce employment and training costs.


Myth: Increasing the minimum wage is bad for the economy.
Not true: Since 1938, the federal minimum wage has been increased 22 times. For more than 75 years, real GDP per capita has steadily increased, even when the minimum wage has been raised.


Myth: The federal minimum wage goes up automatically as prices increase.
Not true: While some states have enacted rules in recent years triggering automatic increases in their minimum wages to help them keep up with inflation, the federal minimum wage does not operate in the same manner. An increase in the federal minimum wage requires approval by Congress and the president. However, in his call to gradually increase the current federal minimum wage to $10.10 per hour, President Obama has also called for it to adjust automatically with inflation. Eliminating the requirement of formal congressional action would likely reduce the amount of time between increases, and better help low-income families keep up with rising prices.


Myth: The federal minimum wage is higher today than it was when President Reagan took office.
Not true: While the federal minimum wage was only $3.35 per hour in 1981 and is currently $7.25 per hour in real dollars, when adjusted for inflation, the current federal minimum wage would need to be more than $8 per hour to equal its buying power of the early 1980s and more nearly $11 per hour to equal its buying power of the late 1960s. That's why President Obama is urging Congress to increase the federal minimum wage and give low-wage workers a much-needed boost.


Myth: Increasing the minimum wage lacks public support.
Not true: Raising the federal minimum wage is an issue with broad popular support. Polls conducted since February 2013 when President Obama first called on Congress to increase the minimum wage have consistently shown that an overwhelming majority of Americans support an increase.


Myth: Increasing the minimum wage will result in job losses for newly hired and unskilled workers in what some call a “last-one-hired-equals-first-one-fired” scenario.
Not true: Minimum wage increases have little to no negative effect on employment as shown in independent studies from economists across the country. Academic research also has shown that higher wages sharply reduce employee turnover which can reduce employment and training costs.


Myth: The minimum wage stays the same if Congress doesn't change it.
Not true: Congress sets the minimum wage, but it doesn't keep pace with inflation. Because the cost of living is always rising, the value of a new minimum wage begins to fall from the moment it is set.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:57 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Prices would go up somewhat but there is a natural ceiling that the cheap places need to stay at to beat out the better but more expensive options.

Apparently Hank will pay literally whatever they tell him.

There is no competition in Hank's America. If Walmart says a polo costs 150 dollars than that's the cost and we have to pay it



The competition is global. The American-made polo is $150. The one made in China is $20, maybe $30 now that they know their competition's prices need to skyrocket. But, in truth, that polo won't be made here any longer.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:58 pm 
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Hawg Ass wrote:
If this were to occur there is no way right now you can convince that prices don't go skyrocketing immediately.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2013/07/price-of-big-mac-could-rise-by-68-cents-if-minimum-wage-doubles/

Prices would go up but it would likely end up being a relatively minor difference.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:59 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Prices would go up somewhat but there is a natural ceiling that the cheap places need to stay at to beat out the better but more expensive options.

Apparently Hank will pay literally whatever they tell him.

There is no competition in Hank's America. If Walmart says a polo costs 150 dollars than that's the cost and we have to pay it



The competition is global. The American-made polo is $150. The one made in China is $20, maybe $30 now that they know their competition's prices need to skyrocket. But, in truth, that polo won't be made here any longer.
Aren't we about 30 years past worrying about that?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:59 pm 
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I refuse to believe that will be the case, like I said there is no one here that convince me otherwise. And I know that is bullheaded.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:00 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Douchebag wrote:
City of Fools wrote:
If the minimum wage goes to $15, I get fired.

Not a fan. I'd rather have a job.

What?

Yeah, really.

Nice drive-by there.


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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca8Z__o52sk


What are your thoughts on this? You promised us a year ago that you would share them with the group. Do you believe we shouldn't have a minimum wage?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:00 pm 
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Hawg Ass wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Hawg Ass wrote:
If this were to occur there is no way right now you can convince that prices don't go skyrocketing immediately.

You think all companies will agree to simlutaneoulsy raise prices

No one would see that as an opportunity to steal market share by keeping their prices fair?

How can you steal the market if you can't afford to produce the product because wages across the board will increase exponentially?

Raising the wages will not cripple most businesses. And if it does, then that business wasnt good enough in the first place.

How does Costco and other non evil companies get away with taking care of employees? Shouldnt they have gone out of business long ago with such insane wages?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:02 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Prices would go up somewhat but there is a natural ceiling that the cheap places need to stay at to beat out the better but more expensive options.

Apparently Hank will pay literally whatever they tell him.

There is no competition in Hank's America. If Walmart says a polo costs 150 dollars than that's the cost and we have to pay it



The competition is global. The American-made polo is $150. The one made in China is $20, maybe $30 now that they know their competition's prices need to skyrocket. But, in truth, that polo won't be made here any longer.

Im not sure what you're saying here.

No one will pay the 150. The price would never get there because no one would pay anything near that


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:04 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Prices would go up somewhat but there is a natural ceiling that the cheap places need to stay at to beat out the better but more expensive options.

Apparently Hank will pay literally whatever they tell him.

There is no competition in Hank's America. If Walmart says a polo costs 150 dollars than that's the cost and we have to pay it



The competition is global. The American-made polo is $150. The one made in China is $20, maybe $30 now that they know their competition's prices need to skyrocket. But, in truth, that polo won't be made here any longer.

Im not sure what you're saying here.

No one will pay the 150. The price would never get there because no one would pay anything near that

At least we all wouldn't have to wear pants, we wouldn't be able to afford them.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:04 pm 
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I would love to live in a world where I thought companies werent out to make every last dime they could. How can you still think companies arent going to nickle and dime us to death?

So Target keeps prices low and goes 6 straight quarters with reduced profits. They do this and Mejier goes out of business because they raised prices and sales plummeted. What is the next thing Target does? They raise prices because a competitor has dropped out.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:06 pm 
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Nas wrote:
What are your thoughts on this? You promised us a year ago that you would share them with the group. Do you believe we shouldn't have a minimum wage?


I believe in letting market forces act as they will. I don't think setting artificial supports in an arbitrary fashion results in a thriving economy. Why $15? If $15 is good, wouldn't $20 be better? Why not $30?

I don't think trying to engineer a strong economy would be as effective or efficient as letting the market act as it will.

What did I promise a year ago?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:07 pm 
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It also should be pointed out that if minimum wage had simple kept up with inflation, it would be about $10.50. If it kept up with productivity, it would be about $22.

How did we survive with such high wages before?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:08 pm 
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Why does everyone assume all employees would keep their jobs if a minimum wage increase was mandated. I'd guess most corporations would just reduce the staff and raise the production expectation of each remaining employee to make up for the loss of work force. The best part is that they'd still raise their prices and use the minimum wage increase as the reason despite the fact that their expense are essentially the same.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:08 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
I believe in letting market forces act as they will.



Rich guys are always blithering about "market forces" until their banks fail.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:08 pm 
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Hank Scorpio wrote:
I would love to live in a world where I thought companies werent out to make every last dime they could. How can you still think companies arent going to nickle and dime us to death?

So Target keeps prices low and goes 6 straight quarters with reduced profits. They do this and Mejier goes out of business because they raised prices and sales plummeted. What is the next thing Target does? They raise prices because a competitor has dropped out.


Mejier's is out of business? Since when?

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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
It also should be pointed out that if minimum wage had simple kept up with inflation, it would be about $10.50. If it kept up with productivity, it would be about $22.

How did we survive with such high wages before?


The lack of a global economy and the internet.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:09 pm 
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WestmontMike wrote:
Why does everyone assume all employees would keep their jobs if a minimum wage increase was mandated. I'd guess most corporations would just reduce the staff and raise the production expectation of each remaining employee to make up for the loss of work force.


That's exactly what would happen.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:10 pm 
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Hank Scorpio wrote:
I would love to live in a world where I thought companies werent out to make every last dime they could. How can you still think companies arent going to nickle and dime us to death?
Do you only buy pizza from the cheapest pizza place in your area? Every buying decision is a balancing of cost and quality. People spend more than the minimum even with the major difference now.

Hank Scorpio wrote:
So Target keeps prices low and goes 6 straight quarters with reduced profits. They do this and Mejier goes out of business because they raised prices and sales plummeted. What is the next thing Target does? They raise prices because a competitor has dropped out.
They will still have to stay below higher end retailers.

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