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leashyourkids
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:13 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
What is the best stat to compare NL vs AL starters?


Well, according to JORR, they are paid to win games wherever they are. But if they're in different leagues, that changes everything.

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Hank Scorpio
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:13 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
What is the best stat to compare NL vs AL starters?


You can't. It simply isnt possible.

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Frank Coztansa
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:14 pm 
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Victory sure is sweet. Props to BRIck and FF as well. We shall rejoice this weekend!

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leashyourkids
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:14 pm 
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Hank Scorpio wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
What is the best stat to compare NL vs AL starters?


You can't. It simply isnt possible.


Correct. It's like comparing football to knitting.

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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:15 pm 
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Hank Scorpio wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
What is the best stat to compare NL vs AL starters?


You can't. It simply isnt possible.
How do you not understand that it is an imperfect measure to compare the statistics between the two leagues without any context? That is my point.

You can compare the statistics but you can't just say X < Y like IMU wants to do.

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Hank Scorpio
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:16 pm 
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WestmontMike wrote:
immessedup17 wrote:
In the National League, the average 9 spot in the order had 37 R and 33 RBI.

In the American League, the average 9 spot in the order had 55 R and 49 RBI.

Over the course of the season, the AL lineup had 16 more RBI and 18 more R come from the 9 spot. That translates to .1 R/RBI per game. So over the course of 30 games pitched by a starter ...3 runs total.

The differential between Arrieta's 2014 season and either of Sale's seasons being discussed is greater than 3 runs over the course of the season. If we add those 3 runs to Arrieta (let's pretend he was charged with all 3 when he was on the mound, and that none were ever given up by the bullpen in relief during Arrieta's starts [i.e. worst case scenario for Arriera]) Jake Arrieta now has a 2.82 ERA. And since we would now have to compare him to AL pitchers and not NL pitchers, his ERA+ and ERA- remain better than Sale's.


You're comparing the 9 spot in the order when you should compare the pitcher vs the DH. That's the difference between the leagues, the DH... DH's don't usually hit 9th in the order.


I dont think this is necessarily true. You are comparing the 9th hitter as it is the worst hitter in your lineup. If a pitcher could truly hit well, the manager would bat him in a different order. We are assuming that the 9 spot is a bad hitter. This is showing how much worse between the leagues.

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leashyourkids
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:16 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Victory sure is sweet. Props to BRIck and FF as well. We shall rejoice this weekend!


Oh my god that's embarrassing. Take a couple days off and write about an omelet, kid.

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IMU
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:17 pm 
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WestmontMike wrote:
You're comparing the 9 spot in the order when you should compare the pitcher vs the DH. That's the difference between the leagues, the DH... DH's don't usually hit 9th in the order.

Fair enough. But again, ERA+ and ERA- have already taken care of this for us.

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WestmontMike
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:18 pm 
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immessedup17 wrote:
WestmontMike wrote:
You're comparing the 9 spot in the order when you should compare the pitcher vs the DH. That's the difference between the leagues, the DH... DH's don't usually hit 9th in the order.

Fair enough. But again, ERA+ and ERA- have already taken care of this for us.


No, it doesn't. It doesn't at all. They're not in the same league.
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FavreFan
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:18 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
:lol: :lol:

Frank comes back from the mat with a devastating blow!
Yup. It's over.

IMU played the "I was trolling even though I responded multiple times like I wasn't" card.


It absolutely is over. IMU had a knockout blow with his runs stat. No one has even attempted to respond!

What are you talking about? Sox Subdivision did respond. We all agreed with IMU's main point, which is that he has reasons to be happy about Arrieta. We were just hoping his point was going to be more interesting.

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Frank Coztansa
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:19 pm 
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Yup. Then when that was conceded, he decided he was "just trolling"

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Hank Scorpio
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:19 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Hank Scorpio wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
What is the best stat to compare NL vs AL starters?


You can't. It simply isnt possible.
How do you not understand that it is an imperfect measure to compare the statistics between the two leagues without any context? That is my point.

You can compare the statistics but you can't just say X < Y like IMU wants to do.


But you dismissed all of his data without looking at it. I agree it needs to be looked at in context but I dont think you bothered to do so. You think the AL is significantly better than the NL so you wont hear anything counter to that viewpoint.

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Hank Scorpio
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:20 pm 
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Frank is taking a lap for adding nothing to the debate. :lol: :lol:

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WestmontMike
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:21 pm 
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Hank Scorpio wrote:
WestmontMike wrote:
immessedup17 wrote:
In the National League, the average 9 spot in the order had 37 R and 33 RBI.

In the American League, the average 9 spot in the order had 55 R and 49 RBI.

Over the course of the season, the AL lineup had 16 more RBI and 18 more R come from the 9 spot. That translates to .1 R/RBI per game. So over the course of 30 games pitched by a starter ...3 runs total.

The differential between Arrieta's 2014 season and either of Sale's seasons being discussed is greater than 3 runs over the course of the season. If we add those 3 runs to Arrieta (let's pretend he was charged with all 3 when he was on the mound, and that none were ever given up by the bullpen in relief during Arrieta's starts [i.e. worst case scenario for Arriera]) Jake Arrieta now has a 2.82 ERA. And since we would now have to compare him to AL pitchers and not NL pitchers, his ERA+ and ERA- remain better than Sale's.


You're comparing the 9 spot in the order when you should compare the pitcher vs the DH. That's the difference between the leagues, the DH... DH's don't usually hit 9th in the order.


I dont think this is necessarily true. You are comparing the 9th hitter as it is the worst hitter in your lineup. If a pitcher could truly hit well, the manager would bat him in a different order. We are assuming that the 9 spot is a bad hitter. This is showing how much worse between the leagues.


It is necessarily true. The difference between an AL lineup and an NL lineup is the DH v the pitcher. Where anyone bats in the order has no bearing on this.
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Frank Coztansa
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:22 pm 
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Hank Scorpio wrote:
Frank is taking a lap for adding nothing to the debate. :lol: :lol:
What are you talking about? IMU said he doesn't believe Arrieta is better and didn't "want to make that argument" yet I quoted him twice saying the exact opposite.

And the reply was, 'Oh I was trolling haha'

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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:23 pm 
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Hank Scorpio wrote:
But you dismissed all of his data without looking at it. I agree it needs to be looked at in context but I dont think you bothered to do so. You think the AL is significantly better than the NL so you wont hear anything counter to that viewpoint.
The only thing I dismissed on how worthless it is to cite statistics that say that Arrieta is better without actually saying it.

I mean, I'm sure I can find statistics that show that Abreu is better than Trout, but I don't think he is so I'm not going to do it.

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rogers park bryan
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:23 pm 
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WestmontMike wrote:
immessedup17 wrote:
WestmontMike wrote:
You're comparing the 9 spot in the order when you should compare the pitcher vs the DH. That's the difference between the leagues, the DH... DH's don't usually hit 9th in the order.

Fair enough. But again, ERA+ and ERA- have already taken care of this for us.


No, it doesn't. It doesn't at all. They're not in the same league.

Right, its not exact.

Its who was more dominant over the competition he faced
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leashyourkids
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:24 pm 
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Hank Scorpio wrote:
Frank is taking a lap for adding nothing to the debate. :lol: :lol:


They call themselves "Sox Subdivision."

Everything after that should be considered a bounce back.

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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:24 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Hank Scorpio wrote:
Frank is taking a lap for adding nothing to the debate. :lol: :lol:


They call themselves "Sox Subdivision."

Everything after that should be considered a bounce back.
We don't derive our self worth based on how many other people also like what we like.

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leashyourkids
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:25 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
WestmontMike wrote:
immessedup17 wrote:
WestmontMike wrote:
You're comparing the 9 spot in the order when you should compare the pitcher vs the DH. That's the difference between the leagues, the DH... DH's don't usually hit 9th in the order.

Fair enough. But again, ERA+ and ERA- have already taken care of this for us.


No, it doesn't. It doesn't at all. They're not in the same league.

Right, its not exact.

Its who was more dominant over the competition he faced


Which is one of the exact arguments that one of the founding fathers of Sox Subdivision uses all the time.

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Frank Coztansa
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:26 pm 
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IMU thinks Arrieta is FAR SUPERIOR than Sale.

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leashyourkids
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:26 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Hank Scorpio wrote:
Frank is taking a lap for adding nothing to the debate. :lol: :lol:


They call themselves "Sox Subdivision."

Everything after that should be considered a bounce back.
We don't derive our self worth based on how many other people also like what we like.


What night do you guys have group outings?

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KDdidit
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:26 pm 
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WestmontMike wrote:
Hank Scorpio wrote:
WestmontMike wrote:
immessedup17 wrote:
In the National League, the average 9 spot in the order had 37 R and 33 RBI.

In the American League, the average 9 spot in the order had 55 R and 49 RBI.

Over the course of the season, the AL lineup had 16 more RBI and 18 more R come from the 9 spot. That translates to .1 R/RBI per game. So over the course of 30 games pitched by a starter ...3 runs total.

The differential between Arrieta's 2014 season and either of Sale's seasons being discussed is greater than 3 runs over the course of the season. If we add those 3 runs to Arrieta (let's pretend he was charged with all 3 when he was on the mound, and that none were ever given up by the bullpen in relief during Arrieta's starts [i.e. worst case scenario for Arriera]) Jake Arrieta now has a 2.82 ERA. And since we would now have to compare him to AL pitchers and not NL pitchers, his ERA+ and ERA- remain better than Sale's.


You're comparing the 9 spot in the order when you should compare the pitcher vs the DH. That's the difference between the leagues, the DH... DH's don't usually hit 9th in the order.


I dont think this is necessarily true. You are comparing the 9th hitter as it is the worst hitter in your lineup. If a pitcher could truly hit well, the manager would bat him in a different order. We are assuming that the 9 spot is a bad hitter. This is showing how much worse between the leagues.


It is necessarily true. The difference between an AL lineup and an NL lineup is the DH v the pitcher. Where anyone bats in the order has no bearing on this.

While that's kinda true it's not that simple. Knowing you have a DH can influence a manager's decision on playing a guy in the field who isn't as good as a hitter knowing he has a DH to cover for it.
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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:28 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
What night do you guys have group outings?
We don't see the need to ever show up anywhere.

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Hank Scorpio
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:28 pm 
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WestmontMike wrote:

It is necessarily true. The difference between an AL lineup and an NL lineup is the DH v the pitcher. Where anyone bats in the order has no bearing on this.


I understand your point but teams build their rosters differently based on the league. You can live with not as much power at a typical power postion because you rely on the DH. I think you compare the 9 spot because it's the worst hitter in the lineup. Whether that is the pitcher or a 2B shouldnt really matter.

If it was truly comparing the P v DH, wouldnt the total runs scored per league skew much higher to the AL. I think typically the numbers are close.

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rogers park bryan
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:29 pm 
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WestmontMike wrote:
Hank Scorpio wrote:
WestmontMike wrote:
immessedup17 wrote:
In the National League, the average 9 spot in the order had 37 R and 33 RBI.

In the American League, the average 9 spot in the order had 55 R and 49 RBI.

Over the course of the season, the AL lineup had 16 more RBI and 18 more R come from the 9 spot. That translates to .1 R/RBI per game. So over the course of 30 games pitched by a starter ...3 runs total.

The differential between Arrieta's 2014 season and either of Sale's seasons being discussed is greater than 3 runs over the course of the season. If we add those 3 runs to Arrieta (let's pretend he was charged with all 3 when he was on the mound, and that none were ever given up by the bullpen in relief during Arrieta's starts [i.e. worst case scenario for Arriera]) Jake Arrieta now has a 2.82 ERA. And since we would now have to compare him to AL pitchers and not NL pitchers, his ERA+ and ERA- remain better than Sale's.


You're comparing the 9 spot in the order when you should compare the pitcher vs the DH. That's the difference between the leagues, the DH... DH's don't usually hit 9th in the order.


I dont think this is necessarily true. You are comparing the 9th hitter as it is the worst hitter in your lineup. If a pitcher could truly hit well, the manager would bat him in a different order. We are assuming that the 9 spot is a bad hitter. This is showing how much worse between the leagues.


It is necessarily true. The difference between an AL lineup and an NL lineup is the DH v the pitcher. Where anyone bats in the order has no bearing on this.

Not necessarily

Usually the best 8 hitters are going to hit regardless

For example

If the NL started using the DH today Rizzo would probably DH, without it he plays 1B. Valaika would play 1B in the DH situation

So Valaika is the one replacing the pitcher's spot (the one who wouldnt have played without DH)
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leashyourkids
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:29 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
What night do you guys have group outings?
We don't see the need to ever show up anywhere.


JORR is gonna be pissed.

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Hank Scorpio
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:29 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
What night do you guys have group outings?
We don't see the need to ever show up anywhere.


:lol: :lol: Perfect.

Sometimes lost in all the quoting and endless arguments is the fact that Rick is a damn funny guy.

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rogers park bryan
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:33 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
immessedup17 wrote:
Arrieta's 2014 has been better than Sale's 2012 or 2013.
Trolling or not, this statement is false.

This is the only post where anyone disagrees right?

Does anyone else think Sale's 2012 or 13 is better than Arrieta's 14?
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WestmontMike
 Post subject: Re: Arrieta!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:36 pm 
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Hank Scorpio wrote:
WestmontMike wrote:

It is necessarily true. The difference between an AL lineup and an NL lineup is the DH v the pitcher. Where anyone bats in the order has no bearing on this.


I understand your point but teams build their rosters differently based on the league. You can live with not as much power at a typical power postion because you rely on the DH. I think you compare the 9 spot because it's the worst hitter in the lineup. Whether that is the pitcher or a 2B shouldnt really matter.

If it was truly comparing the P v DH, wouldnt the total runs scored per league skew much higher to the AL. I think typically the numbers are close.


Sure, I get it, but your kinda making my greater point. There are so many differences between the leagues that you can't just look at one thing and draw an absolute conclusion.
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