How can it be that the Cubs had the greatest minor league system in the history of baseball prior to the Samardzija trade and now 2 of their top 6 prospects came in that trade?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Most of the over the top praise came AFTER that deal.

Because the Samardzija trade was the greatest trade in the history of baseball.

That's how good the system is, JORR.

Even you see it now.

_________________
You know me like that.

That's absolutely not true. It was said by many people, some of them respected analysts. And it was said well before that trade. Also, even after the trade Oakland is highly ranked. I'm just curious as to how they arrive at these conclusions and it seems like they just look at whether a favored GM like Beane or Theo is running the show and then rate his system highly. I thought it was hilarious when Abreu's ranking suddenly dropped as soon as the White Sox signed him.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

This is 100% correct. The trade gave them 3 top-10 position prospects in all of baseball. Before the trade the Twins were considered a better system.

The 2014 Chicago Cubs organization now hold both the record and runner-up positions for greatest farm system in the history of baseball.

The bronze is awarded to the 2015 Chicago Cubs.

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

That's how I see it too. And I don't consider this a Cubs conversation either. It's about how these things are being judged.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Very interested to see what happens with Edwards. Middle relief eventually, I think.

Meanwhile, the Giants have won their second WS title since Theo took over the Cubs.

_________________

What's your point?

My point is that a farm system isn't really something to celebrate. But then again, neither are headlines or attendance figures...

_________________

And they had strong farm systems that were heavily praised too, I like where your head is at, Frank!

No one really celebrates those things though

Without a doubt, there is a certain faction of Cubs fans that do. Not all of them, but some of them do. Even some of them here.

_________________

Cub fans need to celebrate something.

This year my friend. BP Cup. Suck it Sox fucks.

Not headlines

And the attendance stuff is joking I think.


Whatever.

I questioned this before and was ridiculed...even as a BP analyst praising the Cub system was in negotiations with the team for employment.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

I think the Giants built their team the same way the Cubs are.

First, most importantly: Very high draft picks-Lincecum, Bumgarner, Posey
Then building up a backlog of lower level choices-Belt, Panik
One big international signing-Sandoval
Scrap Heap Pitching-Vogelsong, Casilla, Petit, Machi, Strickland

Not sure how that damns the Cub.

_________________
Ба́бушка гада́ла, да на́двое сказа́ла—то ли до́ждик, то ли снег, то ли бу́дет, то ли нет.

You both seem to spend a lot of time discussing these projection websites considering how little respect you have for them

Why not just ignore it?

You know how this thing works around.

Anything Sox fans can use they will use, no matter what people here actually say.

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Okay, let's not turn this into another stupid Cubs/Sox debate with fans of the respective teams lining up on either side.

It's more interesting to talk about how prospects are perceived and why they are perceived a certain way. It seems modern baseball analysis has removed subjectivity when it comes to the actual players and reassigned the subjective analysis to the general managers and the statistics that are chosen to support their viewpoints.

For example, we bend over backward to be objective in analysis by disregarding things like physical attributes that might suggest some superior future perfrmance to instead focus on actual numbers/production. Fine. But then we allow subjectivity to creep back in by- consciously or perhaps subconsiciously- giving more weight to the opinions of particular talent evaluators. Many times there will be consensus regarding the abilities of Player X, but his stock may drop or rise depending upon his selection by General Manager Y or General Manager Z. And then statistics will be subjectively selected to support the viewpoint of the favored GM.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Not really. The Giants have used top picks on pitching (you forgot Cain) while the Cubs have focused primarily on position players. We'll see if that strategy works but it is a big difference in team building philosophy.

Panik was a first rounder.

And it never works the other way around now, does it?

_________________

99 pages on a website I review every day.

I never search this stuff out on my own.

As I have written before, it always seemed strange to me that, even during the Faust years, ND would acquire 5 star talent and always underperform. Then I read that there was an issue with talent being upgraded by a certain analyst AFTER they chose ND.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

To an extent......

How they draft is a big difference. The cubs are stockpiling top bats in an era where hitting is going down due to the decrease in steroid use. The Giants stockpiled top pitching when steroids were prevalent/more prevalent than now. Theo has bulk drafted less than top talent pitching rounds 2-10, and essentially is throwing it against the wall and seeing what sticks.

So far, nothing doing. Pierce Johnson is the closest of it all and he's far from TOR material. Bumgardner was, Lincecum was, Cain was. This Crick kid is. That Beade kid is. That Mejilla kid is. Pierce Johnson is not. Rob Zastrysny is not. Duane Underwood is not.

The Giants are stacked with pitching talents. The cubs with hitting.

But otherwise you make a good point.

Good read here:

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2014/12/ ... s-for-2015

In Kris Bryant, Jorge Soler, and Addison Russell, the Cubs have three of the top ten prospects in all of baseball. Kyle Schwarber isn't far behind, and the system boasts rapidly improving depth behind the top group, including on the mound.
Tweet (74) Share (89) Share

Chicago Cubs Top 20 Prospects for 2015

The list and grades are a blending of present performance and long-term potential. Comments are welcome, but in the end all analysis and responsibility is mine. Full reports on all of players can be found in the 2015 Baseball Prospect Book. We are now taking pre-orders for the book, so order early and order often!

All of these grades are preliminary and subject to change.

QUICK PRIMER ON GRADE MEANINGS

Grade A prospects are the elite. In theory, they have a good chance of becoming stars or superstars. Theoretically, most Grade A prospects develop into stars or at least major league regulars, if injuries or other problems don’t intervene. Note that is a major "if" in some cases.

Grade B prospects have a good chance to enjoy successful careers. Some will develop into stars, some will not. Most end up spending several years in the majors, at the very least in a marginal role.

Grade C prospects are the most common type. These are guys who have something positive going for them, but who may have a question mark or three, or who are just too far away from the majors to get an accurate feel for. A few Grade C guys, especially at the lower levels, do develop into stars. Many end up as role players or bench guys. Some don’t make it at all.

Finally, keep in mind that all grades are shorthand. You have to read the full comment in the book for the full analysis about a player, the letter grade only tells you so much. A Grade C prospect in rookie ball could end up being very impressive, while a Grade C prospect in Triple-A is likely just a future role player.



1) Kris Bryant, 3B, Grade A: Age 22, monstrous season in Double-A/Triple-A, .325/.438/.661 with 43 homers, 86 walks, 162 strikeouts in 492 at-bats. Bat could be something like Jeff Bagwell and he’s not a bad third baseman either. I think he’s the best prospect in baseball.

2) Addison Russell, SS, Grade A: Age 20, thunder in the bat (.295/.350/.508 with 13 homers in 68 games) and he can play shortstop, at least in the short and medium runs. Main concern is staying healthy.
Must Reads
Pre-order the 2015 Baseball Prospect Book
John Sickels


3) Jorge Soler, OF, Grade A: Age 22, hit .340/.432/.700 in 62 minor league games and .292/.330/.573 in 24 major league games. That’s not a fluke, the bat is legitimately that good. Like Russell, the main concern is propensity to injury. You can make a case to rank Soler ahead of Russell since he’s more proven at higher levels, but Russell’s youth and positional premium move him slightly ahead for me.

With Bryant, Russell, and Soler the Cubs have three of the Top Ten prospects in baseball.

4) Kyle Schwarber, C-OF, Grade A-: Borderline A. Age 21, hit .344/.428/.634 in his first 72 professional games. This is a Grade A bat, only question here is defense. I think he has the tools to be an okay defender, though there is some risk that catching focus could hamper hitting development.

5) C.J. Edwards, RHP, Grade B+: Age 23, posted 2.44 ERA with 46/21 K/BB in 48 innings in Double-A when not struggling with shoulder injury. Healthy at the end of the year, upside of a number two or strong number three starter if the durability is there.


6) Albert Almora, OF, Grade B+: Borderline B. Age 20, developed into an excellent defensive outfielder but bat appears stagnant, hit .283/.306/.406 in High-A but just .234/.250/.355 in Double-A. Still very young, draws praise for instincts, lots of time for the hitting to come around.

7) Pierce Johnson, RHP, Grade B: Age 23, 2.55 ERA with 91/54 K/BB in 92 innings in Double-A, just 60 hits. Command goes wobbly at times but looks like a classic number three starter when everything is on. If the walks come down, should get a trial in 2015.

Billy McKinney, OF, Grade B: Borderline B-: Age 20, hit .241/.330/.400 in the California League before trade with Oakland, then .301/.390/.432 in more difficult Florida State League after the trade. Doesn’t have the tools of the guys ahead of him but instincts draw consistent praise and he has a long track record of impressing scouts and coaches with his approach.

9) Duane Underwood, RHP, Grade B-: Age 20, posted 2.50 ERA with 84/36 K/BB in 101 innings in Low-A, 85 hits. Can get into mid-90s, making progress with curveball and change-up, another guy who can be a number three starter with good health and typical development.

10) Jen-Ho Tseng, RHP, Grade B-: Age 20, 2.40 ERA with 85/15 K/BB in 105 innings in Low-A, 76 hits. Very successful teammate of Underwood and more polished, though stuff doesn’t project as well at higher levels and his body is mature. He still looks to me like a prospect that any team would love to have.

11) Gleyber Torres, SS, Grade B-: Age 17, big-budget signee out of Venezuela in 2013, hit .279/.372/.377 at age 17 in rookie ball then tore up short-season Boise for a week (.393/.469/.786). Tiny sample of seven games at Boise, but still. . .he was just 17 and was facing college players. Solid tools that play way above average due to instincts and work ethic. You can make a case as high as nine and he can be in Top Three a year from now.

12) Carson Sands, LHP, Grade B-: Age 19, fourth-round pick but a second-round talent who fell a little due to signability concerns, looked good in rookie ball (1.89 ERA, 20/7 K/BB in 19 innings) and has number three starter upside with potential for three big league pitches.

13) Dan Vogelbach, 1B, Grade B-: Age 21, hit .268/.357/.429 with 16 homers, 66 walks in 482 at-bats in High-A, very impressive production for power-difficult Florida State League. I’m quite confident in his bat but he’s a born DH who has to work hard to stay lower than 260 pounds. Not sure how he fits in Chicago other than trade bait.




14) Eloy Jimenez, OF, Grade C+: HIGH CEILING ALERT: Just turned 18 but played season at 17, hit .227/.268/.367 in rookie ball which was considered very disappointing. However, scouting reports on his tools remain enthusiastic and the Cubs will be very patient given the $2,800,000 they invested in him last year.

I am confident in the ranking of slots 1 through 14. From 15 on, these players are interchangeable Grade C+ types who could be ranked in about a hundred different ways. I have highlighted the ones I find most interesting for various reasons.

15) Victor Caratini, C, Grade C+: Age 21, stolen from the Braves in summer trade, shows excellent strike zone judgment and is a solid defender. Lack of home run power keeps him from higher ranking but he’s very interesting.

16) Corey Black, RHP, Grade C+: Age 23, posted 3.47 ERA with 119/71 K/BB in 124 innings in Double-A. Acquired from Yankees in 2013 for Alfonso Soriano. Stuff can be explosive, but command still work-in-progress. Very athletic.


17) Armando Rivero, RHP, Grade C+: Age 26, Cuban defector, thrived in high minors (1.56 ERA, 54/16 K/BB in 35 innings in Double-A, 2.97 ERA with 46/12 K/BB in 30 innings in Triple-A) and ready for big league trial. Another hard thrower with some command wobbles but considerable bullpen upside.

18) Jake Stinnett, RHP, Grade C+: Age 22, second round pick from University of Maryland is just getting started, college senior but didn’t pitch full time until 2013 so his arm is fresh in mileage terms. Change-up needs work but fastball/slider combination are impressive, fanned 132 in 118 college innings with just 85 hits, 30 walks, 2.67 ERA.

19) Mark Zagunis, C-OF, Grade C+: Age 21, third round pick from Virginia Tech, hit .288/.420/.420 with 16 steals in first 57 pro games with 42 walks, 42 strikeouts. Exceptional strike zone judgment and on-base abilities with lots of speed, some gap power, defensive versatility.

20) Jeferson Mejia, RHP, Grade C+: Age 20, 2.47 ERA with 45/17 K/BB in 40 innings in rookie ball, 30 hits, good reviews for mid-90s heat, promising breaking ball, projectable 6-7, 195 pound body. I think he is a terrific breakthrough candidate.

OTHER GRADE C+: Most of these guys could slot in the 15-20 range. Gioskar Amaya, 2B-C; Jeffrey Baez, OF; Dallas Beeler, RHP; Paul Blackburn, RHP; Jeimer Candelario, 3B; Dylan Cease, RHP; Jonathan Martinez, RHP; Justin Steele, LHP, Rob Zastrynzny, LHP.

OTHERS: Charcer Burks, OF; Trevor Clifton, RHP; Rashad Crawford, OF; Shawon Dunston Jr, OF; Jake Hannemann, OF; Marco Hernandez, SS; Eric Jokisch, LHP; Rafael Lopez, C; Kevonte Mitchell, OF; James Norwood, RHP; Juan Carlos Paniagua, RHP; Starling Peralta, RHP; Bijan Rademacher, OF; Donn Roach, RHP; Matt Szczur, OF; Daury Torres, RHP; Christian Villanueva, 3B

The Cubs probably have the best farm system in baseball. I’m only saying "probably" because I haven’t studied every organization in detail yet, but if they aren’t number one they’d be number two.

It all starts on the hitting side: Kris Bryant, Addison Russell, and Jorge Soler are a special trio and Kyle Schwarber isn’t far behind them. This menacing quartet illustrates in microcosm how the Cubs have built their depth so quickly: with a combination of astute use of early draft picks (Bryant, Schwarber), trades (Russell), and aggressive mining of the international market (Soler).



Almora and McKinney provide additional depth for the outfield. If Gleyber Torres and Eloy Jimenez develop properly, both could leap to the top of the list and replace Bryant and Soler, who will graduate to the majors in 2015 (barring disaster). The thing is, even if there IS a disaster of some kind, there is a large group of potential role players backing up the star talents. The Cubs have shown the ability to snare both college bats with sabermetric chops and more traditional toolsy types.

The pitching isn’t as impressive as the hitting but it isn’t bad and is getting better. C.J. Edwards and Pierce Johnson could see the majors this year as rotation options. Corey Black could also get a trial if his command is up to it. Armando Rivero has a top bullpen arm. Dallas Beeler and Eric Jokisch don’t excite scouts with their stuff but both are proven Triple-A command artists could provide some surprisingly effective innings while the livelier arms develop at lower levels.

Dallas Beeler

Dallas Beeler, photo by Jamie Sabau, Getty Images

Bottom line: the Cubs have a stellar offensive group at the top and lots of depth behind them. The pitching situation is improving steadily, and the front office has shown the ability to find talent in the draft, the trade market, and the international scene. They don’t just dump money on problems: they allocate well too.