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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:45 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:45 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Maybe it's semantical... I don't know - just throwing it out there.

It's cool. I just gave BRick shit for three pages over the secondary definition of proof because I'm bored and a little stoned. It's what we do here to pass time.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:48 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Whenever we have these discussions I wonder how many Americans would be employed if illegal immigrants didn't hold a single job here.

Those jobs have to be done by someone.



In these discussions I have used the Pittsburgh region to answer this. Here there is less than 1% Hispanic population for a variety of reasons. There are tons of landscaping companies and landscape workers though. I am not certain how much more people here have to pay but those jobs are filled. Also, drywall still gets hung and taped as well.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:51 am 
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Yards still get mowed in places where there are no Mexicans? That's why I love this place. You learn something new everyday.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:53 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Yards still get mowed in places where there are no Mexicans? That's why I love this place. You learn something new everyday.


but are tables bussed in an efficient manner


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:54 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Maybe it's semantical... I don't know - just throwing it out there.

It's cool. I just gave BRick shit for three pages over the secondary definition of proof because I'm bored and a little stoned. It's what we do here to pass time.


:lol: I'm teaching a class today with one of our lawyers on how to interpret third party contracts. We have been looking at definitions all day. Sometimes it carries over to message board posting.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:56 am 
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Joke if you want. I answered with a true example.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:59 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Yards still get mowed in places where there are no Mexicans? That's why I love this place. You learn something new everyday.
There are a lot of people that say they "do jobs that no one wants".

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:00 pm 
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Q.Bovifs wrote:
Humans are altruistic by nature.

Very true. This is often overlooked when talking about forcing people to pay taxes to support other people.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:00 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Yards still get mowed in places where there are no Mexicans? That's why I love this place. You learn something new everyday.
There are a lot of people that say they "do jobs that no one wants".

Do you also believe World's Finest chocolate has the world's finest chocolate?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:02 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Yards still get mowed in places where there are no Mexicans? That's why I love this place. You learn something new everyday.
There are a lot of people that say they "do jobs that no one wants".

Do you also believe World's Finest chocolate has the world's finest chocolate?
They have proof that it is.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:02 pm 
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:lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:08 pm 
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Q.Bovifs wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Q.Bovifs wrote:
Humans are altruistic by nature.

Very true. This is often overlooked when talking about forcing people to pay taxes to support other people.

In a purely semantic sense, I think the act of forcing the effort creates obligation, which no longer equates to true altruism.


Ok, I gotta get on the road!

I don't even think that's semantical. There is absolutely nothing altruistic about taxes.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:35 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Whenever we have these discussions I wonder how many Americans would be employed if illegal immigrants didn't hold a single job here.

Those jobs have to be done by someone.

No, those jobs would go undone.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:44 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:50 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
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Was thinking about that recently

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have fun arguing with yourself, Rick!


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:57 pm 
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[quote="Q.Bovifs
Humans are altruistic by nature.[/quote]

I wrote a paper with the exact opposite conclusion back in college.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:34 pm 
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Affirmative Action is something that whites also benefit from and have for centuries. If you look at the history of Chicago you will see where residential covenants were put in place which denied "deserving" blacks the opportunity to live in certain neighborhoods. This is a tough issue because on some level African Americans are responsible for a number of things which afflicts us. Black on Black crime is real and I don't believe that at this point and time it is something that is directly caused by the actions of whites. I do believe that crime is a byproduct of poverty however and I believe that the poverty which affects black ghetto areas is a byproduct of racism. Black poverty is not something that can be chalked up to simply blacks not wanting to work. If you look purely at the numbers blacks have historically chosen governmental work because the doors of corporate America were closed. It did not matter what your educational level happened to be. There are a number of black attorneys in America yet you would be hard pressed to find any that have risen to the upper echelon of their profession. By that I am referring to corporate America not governmental appointment. I can name numerous instances where African Americans have been denied access to scarce resources. It is not simply a matter of not working hard enough.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:37 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
All your posts are written like a motivational speaker on mescaline.


I don't think anyone has ever captured him better. Wow. The words I've been trying to find for years, there they are.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:47 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
All your posts are written like a motivational speaker on mescaline.


I don't think anyone has ever captured him better. Wow. The words I've been trying to find for years, there they are.


You're welcome. Love, Leash.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:29 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Affirmative Action is something that whites also benefit from and have for centuries. If you look at the history of Chicago you will see where residential covenants were put in place which denied "deserving" blacks the opportunity to live in certain neighborhoods. This is a tough issue because on some level African Americans are responsible for a number of things which afflicts us. Black on Black crime is real and I don't believe that at this point and time it is something that is directly caused by the actions of whites. I do believe that crime is a byproduct of poverty however and I believe that the poverty which affects black ghetto areas is a byproduct of racism. Black poverty is not something that can be chalked up to simply blacks not wanting to work. If you look purely at the numbers blacks have historically chosen governmental work because the doors of corporate America were closed. It did not matter what your educational level happened to be. There are a number of black attorneys in America yet you would be hard pressed to find any that have risen to the upper echelon of their profession. By that I am referring to corporate America not governmental appointment. I can name numerous instances where African Americans have been denied access to scarce resources. It is not simply a matter of not working hard enough.


^^^^This guy generally gets it.

I'll reserve the rest of my thoughts. I know who would generally agree & I really know who any discussion with is pointless.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:30 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Affirmative Action is something that whites also benefit from and have for centuries. If you look at the history of Chicago you will see where residential covenants were put in place which denied "deserving" blacks the opportunity to live in certain neighborhoods. This is a tough issue because on some level African Americans are responsible for a number of things which afflicts us. Black on Black crime is real and I don't believe that at this point and time it is something that is directly caused by the actions of whites. I do believe that crime is a byproduct of poverty however and I believe that the poverty which affects black ghetto areas is a byproduct of racism. Black poverty is not something that can be chalked up to simply blacks not wanting to work. If you look purely at the numbers blacks have historically chosen governmental work because the doors of corporate America were closed. It did not matter what your educational level happened to be. There are a number of black attorneys in America yet you would be hard pressed to find any that have risen to the upper echelon of their profession. By that I am referring to corporate America not governmental appointment. I can name numerous instances where African Americans have been denied access to scarce resources. It is not simply a matter of not working hard enough.


^^^^This guy generally gets it.

I'll reserve the rest of my thoughts. I know who would generally agree & I really know who any discussion with is pointless.


I'm interested in your thoughts on this matter.

Please share them.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:47 pm 
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All things being equal, I completely agree with your way of thinking. I've beat personal responsibility and many other things into my kids heads. Excuses without a solution aren't even allowed in my house. That being said, things are not equal and many of the excuses are valid. If someone has been oppressing a group of people and creating dependency, doing many of the things you suggest is a lot harder. You also have to learn what you don't know. How do you learn when the people around you don't know what to teach you or how to teach you? It's not easy to break free of shackles. A man like yourself (that has enjoyed freedom his entire life) doesn't appear to understand this reality.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:07 pm 
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That's a very unfortunate way to look at things. Good talk.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:11 pm 
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Q.Bovifs wrote:
Nas wrote:
All things being equal, I completely agree with your way of thinking. I've beat personal responsibility and many other things into my kids heads. Excuses without a solution aren't even allowed in my house. That being said, things are not equal and many of the excuses are valid. If someone has been oppressing a group of people and creating dependency, doing many of the things you suggest is a lot harder. You also have to learn what you don't know. How do you learn when the people around you don't know what to teach you or how to teach you? It's not easy to break free of shackles. A man like yourself (that has enjoyed freedom his entire life) doesn't appear to understand this reality.

It is not that I do not understand the plight of others. I just find absolutely zero utility in dwelling on it. What good does that do? Rise above.

It can be done. You just admitted it. You are living proof of it.


So, ipso facto, I take it you think homeless folks and perhaps those on welfare are lazy and failed to rise above their particular circumstances.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:31 pm 
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Q.Bovifs wrote:
Are you REALLY interested in things changing for the better? Yes, but not blindly, nor with an absolute embrace of the flawed theory that personal responsibility will be enough to come anywhere near a fair shake for most. I cannot differ with you more deeply in your belief that people at their core are altruistic How is that ever going to happen if the methods and mindsets continue as they are now? Education and an honest, objective look at history Don't you think it is time to try a new approach? Frankly, some folks who had been slaves for up to 200-300 years just in this country were never given their 40 acres & a mule, Jim Crow existed for 100 years after that, the War on Poverty lasted less than a decade and an unabridged Affirmative Action program lasted all of maybe two decades. Exactly what has the new "approach" been & when except for 10-15 years was it an honest attempt? Also, what is so heinous about the idea of fostering increased personal responsibility? Nothing. I've never suggested such. But, that works both ways, no? After all, corporations are now people :roll: . JPMorganChase and myriad others could certainly accept a good chunk of it first and foremostWhy is there nary an acknowledgement that it could very well lead to a trickle-down effect that ends up changing things for the better all around? Because as GHW Bush first accurately described the theories of the Chicago "School" on trickle down economics as voodoo, it's largely even more laughable today


I'll tell you where I'd start. Start properly funding public education. Stop claiming that the "reform of tort legislation" does anything to fix the health care industry. Then actually reform the health care industry. Stay the hell out of other countries & off of other continents to protect "our" (corporate) interests. Return the tax rates to a more progressive level, at least for the near future so those who received the most, pay their fair share to dig "us" out of this.

Instead of demonizing union workers, focus on the criminal and anti-social behavior of corporations killing "us" across the board in this country. Return campaign finance laws to the pre-Scalia Court's goofball "legislating".

Abandon the nutty practices of supply side economics. Extricate this country from ridiculous trade treaties (& tax laws) that eliminated most of the manufacturing jobs in this country. Until that can be done, make real infrastructure programs to rebuild this country. Stop blindly looking to the private sector that values profits over people or this country.

Prosecute open and fairly. If convicted, penalize fairly. Including the police and those deemed too big to fail.

First though, I'd stop lauding millionaires who never did anything other than being members of the lucky sperm club (in one form or fashion) for advice as to how to best lift "us" out of anything.

Any of that sound unfairly racial?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:40 pm 
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Q.Bovifs wrote:
Nas wrote:
That's a very unfortunate way to look at things. Good talk.

Ugh. :?


I understand your way of thinking but I just don't agree. I don't believe I have the ability to make you reconsider and I don't believe you can change the way I see things.

Do I believe people spend too much time feeling sorry for themselves and looking for others to feel sorry for them? Yes! Do I believe that that time would be better spent trying to figure out legit ways to overcome all of the obstacles that are in their way? Yes! As I said if all things were equal I would probably be in complete agreement with you. I've seen the benefits of having a positive mental attitude and finding something good in any negative. I have seen how far faith can take you. That being said what you expect people of all colors (that are being systematically oppressed) to do just isn't realistic. I believe you understand this too but making it as simple as you have helps you sleep at night.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:33 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Q.Bovifs wrote:
Are you REALLY interested in things changing for the better? Yes, but not blindly, nor with an absolute embrace of the flawed theory that personal responsibility will be enough to come anywhere near a fair shake for most. I cannot differ with you more deeply in your belief that people at their core are altruistic How is that ever going to happen if the methods and mindsets continue as they are now? Education and an honest, objective look at history Don't you think it is time to try a new approach? Frankly, some folks who had been slaves for up to 200-300 years just in this country were never given their 40 acres & a mule, Jim Crow existed for 100 years after that, the War on Poverty lasted less than a decade and an unabridged Affirmative Action program lasted all of maybe two decades. Exactly what has the new "approach" been & when except for 10-15 years was it an honest attempt? Also, what is so heinous about the idea of fostering increased personal responsibility? Nothing. I've never suggested such. But, that works both ways, no? After all, corporations are now people :roll: . JPMorganChase and myriad others could certainly accept a good chunk of it first and foremostWhy is there nary an acknowledgement that it could very well lead to a trickle-down effect that ends up changing things for the better all around? Because as GHW Bush first accurately described the theories of the Chicago "School" on trickle down economics as voodoo, it's largely even more laughable today


I'll tell you where I'd start. Start properly funding public education. Stop claiming that the "reform of tort legislation" does anything to fix the health care industry. Then actually reform the health care industry. Stay the hell out of other countries & off of other continents to protect "our" (corporate) interests. Return the tax rates to a more progressive level, at least for the near future so those who received the most, pay their fair share to dig "us" out of this.

Instead of demonizing union workers, focus on the criminal and anti-social behavior of corporations killing "us" across the board in this country. Return campaign finance laws to the pre-Scalia Court's goofball "legislating".

Abandon the nutty practices of supply side economics. Extricate this country from ridiculous trade treaties (& tax laws) that eliminated most of the manufacturing jobs in this country. Until that can be done, make real infrastructure programs to rebuild this country. Stop blindly looking to the private sector that values profits over people or this country.

Prosecute open and fairly. If convicted, penalize fairly. Including the police and those deemed too big to fail.

First though, I'd stop lauding millionaires who never did anything other than being members of the lucky sperm club (in one form or fashion) for advice as to how to best lift "us" out of anything.

Any of that sound unfairly racial?


That's quite the list, RR.

I agree with much of it.

You sure are a regular read on this board, that's for sure!


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:22 pm 
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Q.Bovifs wrote:
Nas wrote:
Q.Bovifs wrote:
Nas wrote:
That's a very unfortunate way to look at things. Good talk.

Ugh. :?


I understand your way of thinking but I just don't agree. I don't believe I have the ability to make you reconsider and I don't believe you can change the way I see things.

Do I believe people spend too much time feeling sorry for themselves and looking for others to feel sorry for them? Yes! Do I believe that that time would be better spent trying to figure out legit ways to overcome all of the obstacles that are in their way? Yes! As I said if all things were equal I would probably be in complete agreement with you. I've seen the benefits of having a positive mental attitude and finding something good in any negative. I have seen how far faith can take you. That being said what you expect people of all colors (that are being systematically oppressed) to do just isn't realistic. I believe you understand this too but making it as simple as you have helps you sleep at night.

I believe in shaping one's own realism, though. Even if you have to "fake it 'til you make it".

Glad you're not mad at me, Nas.


No beef with you.

RR needs to share his thoughts more often.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:59 pm 
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Subsidies, tax loop holes, too big to fail are all examples of corporate welfare. No bid contracts which usually occur because of political connections and not hard work are another. Affirmative Action programs which conservatives rail against were deemed necessary because blacks were denied entry into prominent colleges and universities. Ironically whites have always benefitted from Affirmative Action. It was simply not referred to as Affirmative Action. Do you believe that George W. Bush was admitted to Yale because of merit. The largest industry in D.C. is the lobbying industry. How many blacks are even involved in this industry? Is it because they don't work hard or is it because they have been denied access to this extremely lucrative business?

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