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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:00 pm 
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Q.Bovifs wrote:
Are you REALLY interested in things changing for the better? Yes, but not blindly, nor with an absolute embrace of the flawed theory that personal responsibility will be enough to come anywhere near a fair shake for most. I cannot differ with you more deeply in your belief that people at their core are altruistic How is that ever going to happen if the methods and mindsets continue as they are now? Education and an honest, objective look at history Don't you think it is time to try a new approach? Frankly, some folks who had been slaves for up to 200-300 years just in this country were never given their 40 acres & a mule, Jim Crow existed for 100 years after that, the War on Poverty lasted less than a decade and an unabridged Affirmative Action program lasted all of maybe two decades. Exactly what has the new "approach" been & when except for 10-15 years was it an honest attempt? Also, what is so heinous about the idea of fostering increased personal responsibility? Nothing. I've never suggested such. But, that works both ways, no? After all, corporations are now people :roll: . JPMorganChase and myriad others could certainly accept a good chunk of it first and foremostWhy is there nary an acknowledgement that it could very well lead to a trickle-down effect that ends up changing things for the better all around? Because as GHW Bush first accurately described the theories of the Chicago "School" on trickle down economics as voodoo, it's largely even more laughable today


I'll tell you where I'd start. Start properly funding public education. Stop claiming that the "reform of tort legislation" does anything to fix the health care industry. Then actually reform the health care industry. Stay the hell out of other countries & off of other continents to protect "our" (corporate) interests. Return the tax rates to a more progressive level, at least for the near future so those who received the most, pay their fair share to dig "us" out of this.

Instead of demonizing union workers, focus on the criminal and anti-social behavior of corporations killing "us" across the board in this country. Return campaign finance laws to the pre-Scalia Court's goofball "legislating".

Abandon the nutty practices of supply side economics. Extricate this country from ridiculous trade treaties (& tax laws) that eliminated most of the manufacturing jobs in this country. Until that can be done, make real infrastructure programs to rebuild this country. Stop blindly looking to the private sector that values profits over people or this country.

Prosecute open and fairly. If convicted, penalize fairly. Including the police and those deemed too big to fail.

First though, I'd stop lauding millionaires who never did anything other than being members of the lucky sperm club (in one form or fashion) for advice as to how to best lift "us" out of anything.

Any of that sound unfairly racial?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:02 pm 
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Q.Bovifs wrote:
I say to anyone that will listen: teachers should be the highest paid, second only to, or at least on par with, doctors.

Long time lurker - just wanted to respond to this very topic.
When justifying the salaries paid to hedge-fund managers, CEOs, etc., the explanation always given is that of course we have to pay them millions and millions or we won't have the best and the brightest in those positions. That's fine; I wouldn't want to invest my money in a mutual fund run by a guy making $12/hour. But then why does that same logic never seem to apply to teachers? Perhaps if teachers were paid 100-150k instead of 30-50k coming out of college, there would be many better-qualified candidates choosing to go into education instead of business, or instead of law, and so on. Pair this with competitive hiring practices and public education would gradually improve significantly. It'd be a lot less likely for an unqualified teacher to get hired when competing against the "best and brightest". The top suburban districts already do this and it shows. It would require state/federal level funding to succeed, it would take time to implement, and I'm sure there would be pitfalls and ways to abuse the system, but it would certainly seem to me to be worth the attempt. And the best part is that with quality teachers, you wouldn't need useless "standardized" curricula developed by politicians. You'd have education experts making education decisions tailored to the specific needs of the local student base.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:06 pm 
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Kadomony wrote:
But then why does that same logic never seem to apply to teachers?



Because, like it or not, there is no shortage of competent teachers.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:21 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Kadomony wrote:
But then why does that same logic never seem to apply to teachers?



Because, like it or not, there is no shortage of competent teachers.


I'd disagree then with the desire of having "competent" teachers. I don't want competent; I want outstanding.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:50 pm 
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Kadomony wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Kadomony wrote:
But then why does that same logic never seem to apply to teachers?



Because, like it or not, there is no shortage of competent teachers.


I'd disagree then with the desire of having "competent" teachers. I don't want competent; I want outstanding.


Completely agree

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:52 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Kadomony wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Kadomony wrote:
But then why does that same logic never seem to apply to teachers?



Because, like it or not, there is no shortage of competent teachers.


I'd disagree then with the desire of having "competent" teachers. I don't want competent; I want outstanding.


Completely agree

You'd never get that by Joe Taxpayer though. No way they'd ever sign off on paying teachers 150k a year even if the results were there.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:56 pm 
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Which is sad. We should want the best and brightest teaching our kids.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:57 pm 
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you need strong families. to have strong families you have to have jobs. I don't know how to make good US jobs in the face of international competition and labor saving technologies.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:02 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Which is sad. We should want the best and brightest teaching our kids.
Speaking in purely economic terms we really don't want that.

Our best and brightest need to be creating companies and products and running businesses. We were better off with Bill Gates working at a tech company rather than him teaching high school social studies.

We need good teachers, and I think we do have them. Teachers can still make pretty good money.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:04 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Which is sad. We should want the best and brightest teaching our kids.

You'll get no argument from me on that . There's a perception that anyone can teach effectively and you always see the vitriol whenever teachers contracts are up for raises and the average salary is only half of what that 150k figure is. Again, if the results were proven to be there people would still lose their shit at the thought of paying a "blue collar worker" such as a teacher a white collar professional salary.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:07 pm 
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Albert Hofmann wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
Which is sad. We should want the best and brightest teaching our kids.
Speaking in purely economic terms we really don't want that.

Our best and brightest need to be creating companies and products and running businesses. We were better off with Bill Gates working at a tech company rather than him teaching high school social studies.

We need good teachers, and I think we do have them. Teachers can still make pretty good money.

This guy gets it.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.
I won't go that far, but it is already a profession to choose with many advantages, and many smart people decide to go into it already.

I don't think the teachers are the problem with our educational system.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:23 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I don't think the teachers are the problem with our educational system.


I agree. And whether or not you think they're more important than a guy who can hit a 95 mph fastball or a guy who can sell the shit out of some Veblen goods, supply and demand dictate that they won't be paid as much.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:50 pm 
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My cynical view is that even if you magically found a pain free way to triple funds it will not help. The money will find the same crooked cracks and bureaucratic morasses that the present funds disappear to.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:16 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
Which is sad. We should want the best and brightest teaching our kids.
Speaking in purely economic terms we really don't want that.

Our best and brightest need to be creating companies and products and running businesses. We were better off with Bill Gates working at a tech company rather than him teaching high school social studies.

We need good teachers, and I think we do have them. Teachers can still make pretty good money.

How did the best and brightest become the best and brightest?


And our best need to be working on eradicating cancer


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:21 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:


And our best need to be working on eradicating cancer


sorry, they're busy working on a pot-detecting breathalyzer


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:23 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
How did the best and brightest become the best and brightest?
Teachers played a big role, but it isn't like the smartest people are necessarily the best teachers.
rogers park bryan wrote:
And our best need to be working on eradicating cancer
I'll see what I can do.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:15 pm 
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I was a HS teacher as my first career out of college. it's very similar to other civil professions in that it's a marathon, not a sprint. new teachers out of college do not make a tone of money....however give it time and you'll find a 20 yr veteran teacher with a Master's degree retires with a very nice life. I made it 3.5 years as a teacher. I liked it and I was very good at it, but left for greener pastures.

I agree with all of RR points, but I'll add one:
- Term limits on all elected positions. Lifetime / career politicians are a bad thing..period. If someone wants to serve their government and make a difference...fine, but we have seen way more often than not that making a paid career out of it results in self-service more than public service.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:34 pm 
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wdelaney72 wrote:
I was a HS teacher as my first career out of college. it's very similar to other civil professions in that it's a marathon, not a sprint. new teachers out of college do not make a tone of money....however give it time and you'll find a 20 yr veteran teacher with a Master's degree retires with a very nice life. I made it 3.5 years as a teacher. I liked it and I was very good at it, but left for greener pastures.


I was the opposite. I started out in a different profession but could see the writing on the wall that my position was going to change a lot or possibly be eliminated. So I was able to transition into being a teacher. 2nd year in and I really enjoy it. They money is not great, but the retirement is pretty good and the benefits are decent.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:21 pm 
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This happens more often than my path. it's a great profession, but not for me.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:25 pm 
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wdelaney72 wrote:
This happens more often than my path. it's a great profession, but not for me.


If you started out making $100k+ you would love it.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:26 pm 
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I taught for a couple years. quit because the DC school administration was beyond fucked up. It wasn't really the kids or the job. In an alternate universe I could still be doing it. I really enjoy kids more than most teachers. LOL. the little ones. the bigger ones are a pain (well not all of them).

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:29 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
I taught for a couple years. quit because the DC school administration was beyond fucked up. It wasn't really the kids or the job. In an alternate universe I could still be doing it. I really enjoy kids more than most teachers. LOL. the little ones. the bigger ones are a pain (well not all of them).

I believe Sandusky felt the same way Hatch.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:46 pm 
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badrogue17 wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
I taught for a couple years. quit because the DC school administration was beyond fucked up. It wasn't really the kids or the job. In an alternate universe I could still be doing it. I really enjoy kids more than most teachers. LOL. the little ones. the bigger ones are a pain (well not all of them).

I believe Sandusky felt the same way Hatch.

Not funny.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:49 pm 
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Douchebag wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
I taught for a couple years. quit because the DC school administration was beyond fucked up. It wasn't really the kids or the job. In an alternate universe I could still be doing it. I really enjoy kids more than most teachers. LOL. the little ones. the bigger ones are a pain (well not all of them).

I believe Sandusky felt the same way Hatch.

Not funny.


You really going to be like that?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:50 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I don't think the teachers are the problem with our educational system.


I agree. And whether or not you think they're more important than a guy who can hit a 95 mph fastball or a guy who can sell the shit out of some Veblen goods, supply and demand dictate that they won't be paid as much.



That's a personal attack. Expect to hear from the FBI.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:51 pm 
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DannyB wrote:
[
That's a personal attack. Expect to hear from the FBI.


:lol: Took me a second.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:54 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Which is sad. We should want the best and brightest teaching our kids.


Quickest way to improve long term education would be spend more money improving PreK and Kindergarten programs.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:20 pm 
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Douchebag wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
I taught for a couple years. quit because the DC school administration was beyond fucked up. It wasn't really the kids or the job. In an alternate universe I could still be doing it. I really enjoy kids more than most teachers. LOL. the little ones. the bigger ones are a pain (well not all of them).

I believe Sandusky felt the same way Hatch.

Not funny.

Image

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:24 pm 
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Wait a minute.

Why does Brouge have Q's old avatar?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:26 pm 
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Peoria Matt wrote:
Wait a minute.

Why does Brouge have Q's old avatar?


I believe that he's taking a shot at Chus in his absence by using his old avatar.

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