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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:35 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Let me put that in a clearer way. I believe there is an inherent bias coming from the modern "analytical" baseball writer that favors particular ways of putting together a team.

When one is attempting to create numbers to encapsulate a player's complete performance, there is necessarily going to be a lot of "noise". And as much as these "analysts" like to present their work as objective, there is obviously subjectivity as different components are weighted.

These formulae are being constantly tweaked. What I believe actually happens is that a guy like Kenny Williams signs a player who these writers consider a bum and they twitter and talk about how dumb Kenny is, whereas if Beane or Friedman or Epstein were to sign the same player, they would begin looking at why they signed him and perhaps being to "realize" that he had more value than they previously suspected and in turn look to adjust their numbers to reflect that "fact".

It sort of reminds me of a guy who was in my fantasy league for many years. He used to write a preseason preview for our league called Pavilion (his team was the St. Louis Browns) and every year he had his own team finishing first. When other members objected, he simply said, "Of course I think my team is going to finish first. If I hadn't I would have drafted differently."."
I think this is an interesting thought, though the "math rules all" crowd won't like it.

However, I propose a slightly alternate reason.

The more heavily you rely on SABRmetrics, the better your projections are going to be. A team like the Sox are willing to go against the current hot trend based on the numbers more so they are going to be punished by a system that gives value to those moves. Imagine a hypothetical world where SABRmetrics decided that taller players are better, and they gave extra value to taller players. Those who are following it the most will receive higher marks. If a team decides that tall players are not necessarily better they are going to be hurt in the projections.

So, it's not as much "Theo and Beane are great, so a player is better because they got him" but Theo and Beane taking players that will simply score higher on these projections because they put a lot more stock in them than others.


Yeah, that's pretty much the same thing. The irony is that Beane was lauded for stepping out and going against the Establishment/conventional wisdom and the hidebound ideas and now Beane is the Establishment and his are the conventional ideas.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:36 am 
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Major league baseball is not trying to catch up to Fangraphs. Fangraphs is trying to catch up to major league baseball.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:37 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
The White Sox regularly exceed projection systems.


Why do you think that is?

Amazing ability to avoid injuries, especially pitchers


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:39 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
The White Sox regularly exceed projection systems.


Why do you think that is?

Amazing ability to avoid injuries, especially pitchers


But when it's done season after season, is it really amazing? Shouldn't that be factored in?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:40 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
The White Sox regularly exceed projection systems.


Why do you think that is?

Amazing ability to avoid injuries, especially pitchers


But when it's done season after season, is it really amazing? Shouldn't that be factored in?

In a perfect world, yes. But maybe its hard to quantify from team to team.

Either way, that is the primary reason


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:42 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Let me put that in a clearer way. I believe there is an inherent bias coming from the modern "analytical" baseball writer that favors particular ways of putting together a team.

When one is attempting to create numbers to encapsulate a player's complete performance, there is necessarily going to be a lot of "noise". And as much as these "analysts" like to present their work as objective, there is obviously subjectivity as different components are weighted.

These formulae are being constantly tweaked. What I believe actually happens is that a guy like Kenny Williams signs a player who these writers consider a bum and they twitter and talk about how dumb Kenny is, whereas if Beane or Friedman or Epstein were to sign the same player, they would begin looking at why they signed him and perhaps being to "realize" that he had more value than they previously suspected and in turn look to adjust their numbers to reflect that "fact".

It sort of reminds me of a guy who was in my fantasy league for many years. He used to write a preseason preview for our league called Pavilion (his team was the St. Louis Browns) and every year he had his own team finishing first. When other members objected, he simply said, "Of course I think my team is going to finish first. If I hadn't I would have drafted differently."."
I think this is an interesting thought, though the "math rules all" crowd won't like it.

.


I see part of the problem being that these guys pretend that they are clinicians in creating their numbers, working under the same exacting standards of the scientific method that true mathematicians in more important fields must pass in order for their work to be accepted in the industry.

The saber world is the equivalent of the astrophysics world accepting that greek guy on all history channel alien shows into its mainstream.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:43 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
The White Sox regularly exceed projection systems.


Why do you think that is?

Amazing ability to avoid injuries, especially pitchers


But when it's done season after season, is it really amazing? Shouldn't that be factored in?

Were the 2000s because of Herm or Buerhle, Contreras, Freddy, Garland etc horses who don't get injured?

There's been plenty of injuries in 2010s.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:46 am 
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good dolphin wrote:

I see part of the problem being that these guys pretend that they are clinicians in creating their numbers, working under the same exacting standards of the scientific method that true mathematicians in more important fields must pass in order for their work to be accepted in the industry.

The saber world is the equivalent of the astrophysics world accepting that greek guy on all history channel alien shows into its mainstream.

The blame shouldn't be on the creators of projection systems. It's the analysts/writers who accept them as gospel where you should direct your whining.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:56 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
75-90

=165
:scratch:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:59 am 
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Elmhurst Steve schedule.

The Sox have made some good moves that will have them improve more than 5 wins this year. Not saying they are going to win 94 and win the division, but barring a rash of injuries, they will certainly win more than 78 games.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:02 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
good dolphin wrote:

I see part of the problem being that these guys pretend that they are clinicians in creating their numbers, working under the same exacting standards of the scientific method that true mathematicians in more important fields must pass in order for their work to be accepted in the industry.

The saber world is the equivalent of the astrophysics world accepting that greek guy on all history channel alien shows into its mainstream.

The blame shouldn't be on the creators of projection systems. It's the analysts/writers who accept them as gospel where you should direct your whining.


It's hardly whining. It is a valid criticism. They present their product as unassailable. There is enough money in that industry to expect a product that more resembles perfection.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:05 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Elmhurst Steve schedule.

The Sox have made some good moves that will have them improve more than 5 wins this year. Not saying they are going to win 94 and win the division, but barring a rash of injuries, they will certainly win more than 78 games.


The back end of the rotation looks like one that will prevent them from going on any long winning streaks. On the other hand, the front end should prevent them from going on losing streaks. Factor in a month of Sale on the DL and you have a team that looks .500 +/- a few games.

78 seems low and I would pound that if they chose to offer that for wager

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:08 am 
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spanky wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
75-90

=165
:scratch:


I believe RPB has the Sox win total in a range of 75-90.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:09 am 
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I know it is not a perfect analogy but I point to Pro Football Focus as an example. Even stupid me can poke holes in their work. Yet, it is increasingly being taken as gospel.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:44 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
It's hardly whining. It is a valid criticism. They present their product as unassailable. There is enough money in that industry to expect a product that more resembles perfection.

It's most definitely whining. Why does a computer program hate my team!? Waaaaa

For example, I'd be very hard pressed to see someone discover a tangible way to measure Cooper's impact. For every Thornton and Reed there is Lindstrom, Cleto or McDougal. Leo Mazzone was considered a pitching genius at one time.

Plus, perfect systems and the people behind them are working for teams or gambling syndicates. Not a free website or one requiring a $40 annual membership.

The systems publicly available are fine. The people basing their opinions is where your crying should be directed.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:55 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
good dolphin wrote:

I see part of the problem being that these guys pretend that they are clinicians in creating their numbers, working under the same exacting standards of the scientific method that true mathematicians in more important fields must pass in order for their work to be accepted in the industry.

The saber world is the equivalent of the astrophysics world accepting that greek guy on all history channel alien shows into its mainstream.

The blame shouldn't be on the creators of projection systems. It's the analysts/writers who accept them as gospel where you should direct your whining.


That's just it. They're not scientists or analysts. They're writers. It's no different than suggesting what Malcolm Gladwell does is scholarship. And I like Gladwell. He's an interesting writer. So is Voros McCracken.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:58 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
The systems publicly available are fine.
You say that because the system you are talking about has the Sox winning 78 games.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:21 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
The systems publicly available are fine.
You say that because the system you are talking about has the Sox winning 78 games.

You're a dumbass.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:24 am 
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Good counterpoint. :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:07 pm 
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Kirkwood wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
It's hardly whining. It is a valid criticism. They present their product as unassailable. There is enough money in that industry to expect a product that more resembles perfection.

It's most definitely whining. Why does a computer program hate my team!? Waaaaa.


I say that because they get my team wrong every year, know it is true and are satisfied with the answer that they are just an anomaly.

Their projections have zero impact on me as a fan of the White Sox but they do wield some weight in the industry. I expect more.

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Last edited by good dolphin on Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:08 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
good dolphin wrote:

I see part of the problem being that these guys pretend that they are clinicians in creating their numbers, working under the same exacting standards of the scientific method that true mathematicians in more important fields must pass in order for their work to be accepted in the industry.

The saber world is the equivalent of the astrophysics world accepting that greek guy on all history channel alien shows into its mainstream.

The blame shouldn't be on the creators of projection systems. It's the analysts/writers who accept them as gospel where you should direct your whining.


That's just it. They're not scientists or analysts. They're writers. It's no different than suggesting what Malcolm Gladwell does is scholarship. And I like Gladwell. He's an interesting writer. So is Voros McCracken.

What makes a baseball writer or analyst different from a front office scout?

Did the scout get his Masters at the prestigious Alexander Cartwright University of Baseball? The baseball writers could only afford to get an Associates at DCC, Doubleday Community College?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:10 pm 
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immessedup17 wrote:
What makes a baseball writer or analyst different from a front office scout?

Did the scout get his Masters at the prestigious Alexander Cartwright University of Baseball? The baseball writers could only afford to get an Associates at DCC, Doubleday Community College?
What makes a guy who works at Goldman Sachs different than a guy who sits at home and writes a blog about stocks?

Pretty much everything.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:13 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
immessedup17 wrote:
What makes a baseball writer or analyst different from a front office scout?

Did the scout get his Masters at the prestigious Alexander Cartwright University of Baseball? The baseball writers could only afford to get an Associates at DCC, Doubleday Community College?
What makes a guy who works at Goldman Sachs different than a guy who sits at home and writes a blog about stocks?

Pretty much everything.

https://twitter.com/gselevator

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:23 pm 
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immessedup17 wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
good dolphin wrote:

I see part of the problem being that these guys pretend that they are clinicians in creating their numbers, working under the same exacting standards of the scientific method that true mathematicians in more important fields must pass in order for their work to be accepted in the industry.

The saber world is the equivalent of the astrophysics world accepting that greek guy on all history channel alien shows into its mainstream.

The blame shouldn't be on the creators of projection systems. It's the analysts/writers who accept them as gospel where you should direct your whining.


That's just it. They're not scientists or analysts. They're writers. It's no different than suggesting what Malcolm Gladwell does is scholarship. And I like Gladwell. He's an interesting writer. So is Voros McCracken.

What makes a baseball writer or analyst different from a front office scout?

Did the scout get his Masters at the prestigious Alexander Cartwright University of Baseball? The baseball writers could only afford to get an Associates at DCC, Doubleday Community College?

Baseball writers are like TV weathermen. There is no repurcussions for poor performance.

Writers - poor predictions/analysis --> well that's baseball for ya, totally unpredictable
Weathermen - poor prediction/analysis --> well that's weather for ya, totally unpredictable


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:32 pm 
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Baseball is a buddy, buddy league. Tim Wilken is still employed because of one Chris Carpenter.

Once you're "in", you're in. You're a lifer.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:34 pm 
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The responsibility to prove the validity of a system should never be on the skeptic.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:38 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
immessedup17 wrote:
What makes a baseball writer or analyst different from a front office scout?

Did the scout get his Masters at the prestigious Alexander Cartwright University of Baseball? The baseball writers could only afford to get an Associates at DCC, Doubleday Community College?
What makes a guy who works at Goldman Sachs different than a guy who sits at home and writes a blog about stocks?

A shitload of Coke and a pretty sizeable Christmas bonus


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:38 pm 
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:lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:36 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
immessedup17 wrote:
What makes a baseball writer or analyst different from a front office scout?

Did the scout get his Masters at the prestigious Alexander Cartwright University of Baseball? The baseball writers could only afford to get an Associates at DCC, Doubleday Community College?
What makes a guy who works at Goldman Sachs different than a guy who sits at home and writes a blog about stocks?

A shitload of Coke and a pretty sizeable Christmas bonus



...And a $10 billion government bailout.

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