I'm sure that is how it would be taken and it wouldn't be viewed as a bunch of Christians trying to destroy Islam!

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

I'm not really sure who they are though. We have veganfan here and I'd be interested to hear his thoughts. How does he feel about cartoons of the Prophet? Does he condemn these types of killings but only with a "but"... tacked on? I don't really consider that "moderate".

What are the qualities that differentiate a "moderate" from a "radical"? if it's not actual beliefs but rather nothing more than the act of pulling the trigger, I would submit that there are no moderates at all.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

I realize that Islam doesn't have a central authority like the Catholic church, but at some point, if you belong to a group and identify as a member of that group, you have to step up and lead said group in the values you believe it stands for. If you fail to do so, it's absolutely fair to assume you support the behaviors of those claiming to lead your group.

I understand your point but it is difficult for the moderate members of the faith to protest too loudly. They will become targets. There have been followers of Islam that have been killed for speaking out against radicals. They're at risk also.

For example, we have no problem condemning an organization like the KKK. If three KKK members drag a guy behind a truck, we don't say "THAT'S JUST THOSE THREE GUYS! STOP PAINTING ALL KKK MEMBERS WITH A BROAD BRUSH!" That's because there is a basic philosophy the KKK espouses that we find reprehensible. Can the same not be said for Islam?

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

if you read between the paragraph I'm basically saying that moderates in those countries are at risk if they speak out against radicals.

I am not a legal expert, how many times do I have to say it?

I am not a legal expert, how many times do I have to say it?

Of course they are at risk. Any revolutionary in any country would be. The same thing happened to those who supported the American Revolution, they put themselves in danger.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

PittMike really put in some work earlier in this thread. Can someone do a wellness check on him?

So you are basically advocating the abuse of human rights because you are not willing to offend a group of people that many here already consider to be fanatical?

Stop asking bad questions.

In the position America and Christians in general are in, more progress can be made working with Saudi Arabia. Being an example of how it can be and bringing our more free culture would do more good than being adversarial with them.

Ultimately, the people of Saudi Arabia need to decide to change. We certainly cannot force them to do so.

Stop asking bad questions.

In the position America and Christians in general are in, more progress can be made working with Saudi Arabia. Being an example of how it can be and bringing our more free culture would do more good than being adversarial with them.

Ultimately, the people of Saudi Arabia need to decide to change. We certainly cannot force them to do so.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

By refusing to condemn the actions of the Saudi Arabian govt. demonstrates a tacit endorsement of it. You're asking a group of people (moderate) Muslims to risk their lives to condemn the actions of radicals when our govt is unwilling to condemn the actions of the Saudi Arabian govt. You wonder why that isn't a bit hypocritical. Quite frankly your rationale for not doing so is rather weak. The U.S. Government has no problem performing drone attacks in Muslim countries. They has no problem shipping "suspected" terrorists to Guantanamo, often under dubious circumstances and trumped up charges, but dont let them condemn the actions of the Saudi Arabian government. No no no we mustn't do that for fear that they won't somehow like us. How do you sound?

And we do need oil. "No war for oil" is a great human philosophy until you have no heat and your hot hatch won't go.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

You are saying a lot without actually saying how sanctions against Saudi Arabia would help.

We could completely cut them off like North Korea and they aren't going to suddenly decide non-Muslim religions are ok. Our best option is to work with them and export our culture and ideas to them.

Your idea that the way to improve the Muslim world is for us to be MORE adversarial with them is laughingly bad.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

Our culture is never going to be exported over there.

It actually isn't laughingly bad. We are critical of terrorists for their actions yet the Saudi Arabian govt has been one of the leading sponsors of terrorism. In your own words to criticize or condemn is laughingly bad but to tacitly endorse is somehow good. We s shouldn't condemn them because it won't do anything but I'm wondering what has been accomplished by not condemning them?

It is already. http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2007-10-21/the-arab-world-wants-its-mtv
It's not good but it is what needs to be done.

You still have yet to to explain how being more adversarial with the Muslim world will convince Islamic states to change.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

Condemning may not change anything but it will show that you don't approve.

Thanks. Conversation over.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

We actually don't know of it will change anything because it has not been tried yet. It will demonstrate that the United States does not approve which should be important to the people of the United States. You could make the same argument for the moderates. We don't know if their condemnation of the radicals behavior will change anything but you have no problem telling them to at least try it. It's the epitome of hypocrisy.

I said the conversation was over.

I said the conversation was over.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

It's obvious I could care less what you say.

Who the hell are you? If I want to make a point i will make a point

Wow ! Rick's waving the white flag. Is this a first ?

Wow ! Rick's waving the white flag. Is this a first ?

If BRick waves the white flag, the terrorists have won.

For those curious as to why Muslims seem to never speak out .... that's apparently a false presumption ....