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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:38 pm 
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Vaccines are good. Unfortunately, good things can be bastardized.

Pharmaceutical companies develop medicines / vaccines, test them, and prove they’re safe and effective. The problem here isn’t the vaccines, it’s what happens when you introduce cost efficiency and preservative measures here to make them available for mass consumption at a profit. Like food, other additives come into play and now you are looking at something that may or may not be the same as it was when developed.

While I agree, to not vaccinate is stupid and careless…It’s also careless to ignore the fact that autism and other diseases are drastically higher than they were in the past. There has to be a reason.

For the record, my kids are vaccinated.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:41 pm 
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wdelaney72 wrote:
While I agree, to not vaccinate is stupid and careless…It’s also careless to ignore the fact that autism and other diseases are drastically higher than they were in the past. There has to be a reason.
It isn't careless. There are many sound and supportable theories as to why that is. Vaccines just isn't one of them.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:48 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
wdelaney72 wrote:
While I agree, to not vaccinate is stupid and careless…It’s also careless to ignore the fact that autism and other diseases are drastically higher than they were in the past. There has to be a reason.
It isn't careless. There are many sound and supportable theories as to why that is. Vaccines just isn't one of them.
This.

wdelaney72 - it's that line of thinking that allows this "stupid and careless" argument to survive.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:48 pm 
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wdelaney72 wrote:
Vaccines are good. Unfortunately, good things can be bastardized.

Pharmaceutical companies develop medicines / vaccines, test them, and prove they’re safe and effective. The problem here isn’t the vaccines, it’s what happens when you introduce cost efficiency and preservative measures here to make them available for mass consumption at a profit. Like food, other additives come into play and now you are looking at something that may or may not be the same as it was when developed.

While I agree, to not vaccinate is stupid and careless…It’s also careless to ignore the fact that autism and other diseases are drastically higher than they were in the past. There has to be a reason.

For the record, my kids are vaccinated.


My guy at the FDA says that no drugs are tested and monitored more rigorously than immunizations. It is astonishing that the Republicans are making this in issue in the lead-up to 2016. Who made that decision?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:42 pm 
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Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
wdelaney72 wrote:
While I agree, to not vaccinate is stupid and careless…It’s also careless to ignore the fact that autism and other diseases are drastically higher than they were in the past. There has to be a reason.
It isn't careless. There are many sound and supportable theories as to why that is. Vaccines just isn't one of them.
This.

wdelaney72 - it's that line of thinking that allows this "stupid and careless" argument to survive.

Ive never really done a ton of research on Autism being linked to vaccines because I never thought it warranted research.

But the other side should be discussed more. The valid reasons. You almost never hear about those in these debates (or at least I dont)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:10 pm 
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DannyB wrote:

My guy at the FDA says that no drugs are tested and monitored more rigorously than immunizations. It is astonishing that the Republicans are making this in issue in the lead-up to 2016. Who made that decision?


Your guy at the fda will never say anything but that even if it's a complete lie.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:59 pm 
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The increase in autism and autoimmune diseases/disorders , especially in the sterile, clean well-off purelled suburbs of the USA might be attributable to that sterile, clean purelled environment in which these children's mothers exist.

Living in a hyper-clean, germ free environment, our body's immune system sits around with little to nothing to do for years. Then one day, the person becomes pregnant--a foreign organism takes up residence inside the body. The immune system clocks this unknown invader, puts down the bong and x-box controller, gets up off the couch and says "finally, we have an invasive organism--let's attack"!

And so the bodies immune system attacks the fetus, usually attacking the brain of the fetus, resulting in the child falling out of the womb and onto the spectrum.

http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2014/0 ... manof.html

Consider: autism is virtually non-existent in 3rd world shithole countries with low standards of hygiene.

And in the united States, populations exposed to rampant germs and uncleanliness and immune system stress (read: mainly farmers living on farms with livestock) have much, much lower autism rates than the populations in the clean suburbs.

Some doctors have suggested that expecting mothers wishing to avoid autism and other auto-immune issues for their child spend the gestation period on a working dairy farm (not an agri-business growing almonds in a semi-arid environment). I wouldn't be at all surprised to see these autism prevention incubators become a thing in the US as autism rates continue to rise.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:19 pm 
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Yet another reason city > suburbs. Forget childbirth in water, bring on the midwifery on the L.

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Last edited by Furious Styles on Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:23 pm 
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Furious Styles wrote:
Yet another reason city > suburbs. Forgot childbirth in water, bring on the midwifery on the L.


My son is autistic because dey skipped da stop at Diversey !!!!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:05 pm 
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Hussra wrote:
Consider: autism is virtually non-existent in 3rd world shithole countries with low standards of hygiene.

They also have much less access to mental health services, to say nothing of autism being more difficult to detect in other cultures.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:08 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Hussra wrote:
Consider: autism is virtually non-existent in 3rd world shithole countries with low standards of hygiene.

They also have much less access to mental health services, to say nothing of autism being more difficult to detect in other cultures.


I sometimes wonder how much the "increase in autism" has to do with better diagnostics as well as this expansion of this wide spectrum. They thought my daughter had Asperger's but she either grew out of it or simply is highly OCD. Who knows? Back when I was a kid a lot of "autistic spectrum" kids were just weird kids.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:14 pm 
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Yeah, it happens. I was diagnosed as ADHD in third grade and Asperger's in high school. There are also too many people who self-diagnose, which has about as much value as this mucus I've been hacking up for the last week; such is life when disorders become fads (and such is my life with acute bronchitis). The shift from strictly classical autism to a greater understanding of the autism spectrum (though I like the idea of a "cloud" more than a purely linear spectrum) makes a huge difference as well, of course.

I don't know if I'd say it's something you "grow out of" so much as you just learn to make it work for you. You're not going to become a new person, but you can definitely function more and better with the right therapy.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:50 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Yeah, it happens. I was diagnosed as ADHD in third grade and Asperger's in high school. There are also too many people who self-diagnose, which has about as much value as this mucus I've been hacking up for the last week; such is life when disorders become fads (and such is my life with acute bronchitis). The shift from strictly classical autism to a greater understanding of the autism spectrum (though I like the idea of a "cloud" more than a purely linear spectrum) makes a huge difference as well, of course.

I don't know if I'd say it's something you "grow out of" so much as you just learn to make it work for you. You're not going to become a new person, but you can definitely function more and better with the right therapy.



At any rate that could lead to the "explosion" in the numbers at least in part. BTW, daughter straight A's and likely pre med D2 athlete. More people need vaccines. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:54 pm 
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The understimulated immune system must have something to do with the fact that a peanut butter sandwich has become biological warfare.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:59 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
The understimulated immune system must have something to do with the fact that a peanut butter sandwich has become biological warfare.



That is an interesting point. At no time do I recall as a kid having what happened to me as I went to my kid's school to serve treats. A 5 year old kid comes up to me and says "I am allergic to Red Dye Number 4". Same goes for airplanes and peanuts. I traveled for business for 15 years and never once saw a person have an issue.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:09 pm 
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Hussra wrote:
The increase in autism and autoimmune diseases/disorders , especially in the sterile, clean well-off purelled suburbs of the USA might be attributable to that sterile, clean purelled environment in which these children's mothers exist.

Living in a hyper-clean, germ free environment, our body's immune system sits around with little to nothing to do for years. Then one day, the person becomes pregnant--a foreign organism takes up residence inside the body. The immune system clocks this unknown invader, puts down the bong and x-box controller, gets up off the couch and says "finally, we have an invasive organism--let's attack"!

And so the bodies immune system attacks the fetus, usually attacking the brain of the fetus, resulting in the child falling out of the womb and onto the spectrum.

http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2014/0 ... manof.html

Consider: autism is virtually non-existent in 3rd world shithole countries with low standards of hygiene.

And in the united States, populations exposed to rampant germs and uncleanliness and immune system stress (read: mainly farmers living on farms with livestock) have much, much lower autism rates than the populations in the clean suburbs.

Some doctors have suggested that expecting mothers wishing to avoid autism and other auto-immune issues for their child spend the gestation period on a working dairy farm (not an agri-business growing almonds in a semi-arid environment). I wouldn't be at all surprised to see these autism prevention incubators become a thing in the US as autism rates continue to rise.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:35 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:46 am 
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pittmike wrote:
Curious Hair wrote:
Hussra wrote:
Consider: autism is virtually non-existent in 3rd world shithole countries with low standards of hygiene.

They also have much less access to mental health services, to say nothing of autism being more difficult to detect in other cultures.


I sometimes wonder how much the "increase in autism" has to do with better diagnostics as well as this expansion of this wide spectrum.


This seems to be the most logical conclusion.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:48 pm 
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http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/chi-measles-palatine-20150205-story.html#page=1

Officials: 'More cases' expected in measles cluster at Palatine day care center

Cook County health officials said Thursday that the public should expect more measles cases to emerge from a cluster associated with a Palatine day care center after five children were confirmed or suspected of having the disease.

"There will be more cases. … We shouldn’t be surprised about that," said Dr. Terry Mason, chief operating officer of the Cook County Department of Public Health. "The cat is out of the bag."

Public health officials are investigating the measles cluster at the KinderCare Learning Center at 929 E. Palatine Road. Two cases have been confirmed with laboratory testing. Of the three cases that are suspected but not confirmed, county officials said they should get specimens back later Thursday and know their status for certain by early Friday.

All of the cases involve children younger than 1. None of the five babies confirmed or suspected to have measles was hospitalized. All are being cared for at home, officials said.

All the confirmed or potential cases are infants who are too young to have received the MMR (measles, mumps and rubella) vaccine. None has parents who have opted out of the immunization, Mason said. Health officials declined to identify the communities the children are from, out of privacy concerns.

Thursday's developments come about a week after Cook County officials announced the state’s first confirmed case this year of the respiratory disease, traced to a suburban Cook County resident that officials would identify only as being older than 18. At the time, officials listed three locations where others might have been exposed to the patient in mid-January -- including two in Palatine.

Cook County officials say it’s not clear whether the adult’s diagnosis is linked to the children at the Palatine center or to the outbreak associated with Disneyland, which has grown to more than 100 cases, many of them in California.

Students and staff at the Palatine facility have been notified, and anyone who has not been vaccinated with the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine has been instructed to remain at home.

Anyone at the facility who did not have an updated vaccination record is “excluded from the center” until Feb. 24, said Colleen Moran, spokeswoman for KinderCare, which runs 1,500 learning centers in the U.S. that offer care and schooling for infants through 12-year-olds.

Moran said the center was following the guidance of the Cook County Department of Public Health by keeping unvaccinated children and staff away from the center until that date, calling it “a precaution.”

“We just want everyone to recover quickly and to stay safe,” Moran said, adding that the center got a “deep clean” Wednesday night.

Cook County officials say any resident who is unvaccinated and experiences measles symptoms of a high fever and rash should call their local health department and their doctor.

Measles is a highly contagious respiratory disease that can cause severe health complications, including pneumonia, encephalitis and death. The virus is transmitted by contact with an infected person through coughing or sneezing and can remain alive in the air and on surfaces for up to two hours. Infected people are contagious from four days before their rash starts through four days afterward, according to state and county health officials.

Children as young as those who were diagnosed with measles from the child care center are not recommended for the vaccine. That’s because "their immune response doesn’t last," said Dr. Wendell Wheeler of Ingalls Memorial Hospital in south suburban Harvey. “It’s a temporary response, which is why we wait until 12 months.”

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Academy of Family Physicians all recommend that children get their first dose of the MMR (measles, mumps and rubella) vaccine at 12 to 15 months old and a second shot at 4 to 6 years old, before starting kindergarten.

Despite a national MMR vaccination coverage level of 92 percent, 1 in 12 children in the United States are not receiving the first dose of MMR vaccine on time, underscoring considerable measles susceptibility across the country, according to the CDC.

Unvaccinated children are among the most vulnerable to measles, which is among the most contagious of all diseases, Wheeler said.

“The very young have small airways,” Wheeler said. “The disease has thick mucus, and the two don’t go together. They are not moving air well and they get into trouble,” he said, adding that pneumonia is often a complication.

If your child has only the first dose of the measles vaccine, he or she may not be fully protected. About 5 to 10 percent do not develop an adequate immune response after one dose, which is why a second dose is necessary, said Dr. Tina Tan, an infectious disease specialist at Lurie Children’s Hospital in Chicago.

“If given at the appropriate interval and age, after two doses of measles vaccine a person is considered protected for life,” she said.

Those who are too young to get vaccinated are protected by the majority who are inoculated, called herd immunity.

However, when the vaccination rate drops below 95 percent, a community loses its herd immunity to highly contagious diseases such as measles, Tan said.

“(Herd immunity) matters because the virus has no place to go," Wheeler said. "If it hits person one and they’re immune and person two and they’re immune …. But if it hits person one who is not immune, well, it can increase exponentially.”

The vaccine is required for Illinois students. Statewide, the percentage of schoolchildren who have complied with measles vaccination rules has remained about 98 percent over the past decade, according to the Illinois State Board of Education, which collects data from public and nonpublic schools. But that includes both those who got the vaccine and those who officially opted out of vaccinations for religious or medical reasons, according to the agency.

Heather Robinson took her 15-month-old for the MMR shot last month. The child broke out into a rash that covered every inch of her body; “it was even in her ears,” her mother said. “I was totally freaking out … I thought it was measles.”

It turned out to be a reaction to the shot. Still, the Homewood mother is glad she was proactive.

“I have friends who don’t vaccinate. … They admit that they’re depending on others to be responsible, which is kind of hypocritical.”

Some child care centers say they’re taking extra steps to ward off measles as its national presence widens.

At Blocks Infant Toddler Childcare in the South Loop, officials are having a pediatric nurse who normally visits the facility once a month come in twice to ensure that staff members are following best practices, said program director Aishah Fields.

The nurse also led a workshop with staff about recognizing the signs of measles and other information so all would be educated on the topic, Fields said.

“It takes the fear out and we feel equipped to handle it if something like that arises. We know what to look for,” she said.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:21 pm 
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They are all under 1. The vaccine isn't given til after 1. I think my kids had theirs at 15 or 18 months. I'm against speeding up the schedule if that's where they go with this.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:34 pm 
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Spaulding wrote:
They are all under 1. The vaccine isn't given til after 1. I think my kids had theirs at 15 or 18 months. I'm against speeding up the schedule if that's where they go with this.


I suspect, as has been stated innumerable times, the message is that the "clever" folks who don't vaccinate their crotchfruit because they're smarter than everyone else are putting infants like these, as well as the advanced elderly, as well as the rare legitimately un-immunizable folks at risk with their activity, or perhaps better said, lack thereof.

I'll say this - if a couple infants like this or others elsewhere croak from something like measles or the like, that'll be the swift end of any 'discussion' on the matter, which would lead to 'government', in all its otherwise glorious fucking wisdom, overstepping its bounds as per usual in the name of "think of the children" which may right a wrong but would do so in a less than ideal way to put it politely. At that point it's fighting fire with fire, or more aptly, fighting dumbfuckery with dumbfuckery.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:51 pm 
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Gov should never be allowed to mandate it, but I think it's where it's going. Scary, imo.

The info about the Disney cases still isn't clear.

Quote:
Heather Robinson took her 15-month-old for the MMR shot last month. The child broke out into a rash that covered every inch of her body; “it was even in her ears,” her mother said. “I was totally freaking out … I thought it was measles.”

It turned out to be a reaction to the shot. Still, the Homewood mother is glad she was proactive.


This is really scary too. :shock:


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:00 pm 
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Spaulding wrote:
Gov should never be allowed to mandate it, but I think it's where it's going. Scary, imo.
I'd say there are other things that are scarier.
Spaulding wrote:
Quote:
Heather Robinson took her 15-month-old for the MMR shot last month. The child broke out into a rash that covered every inch of her body; “it was even in her ears,” her mother said. “I was totally freaking out … I thought it was measles.”

It turned out to be a reaction to the shot. Still, the Homewood mother is glad she was proactive.


This is really scary too. :shock:
I have no problem with her being proactive but it also goes to show the difference between a trained medical professional and a mother who immediately thought it was measles.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:10 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I'd say there are other things that are scarier


There is not a whole lot on that list. If you think it's a long list good for you.

Quote:
I have no problem with her being proactive but it also goes to show the difference between a trained medical professional and a mother who immediately thought it was measles.


It also shows the shots may not be good for some people, or at least at certain times. They don't know as much as they should and don't care enough to find out.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:12 pm 
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Spaulding wrote:
There is not a whole lot on that list. If you think it's a long list good for you.
I'd say the recurrence of those diseases would be even scarier.
Spaulding wrote:
It also shows the shots may not be good for some people, or at least at certain times. They don't know as much as they should and don't care enough to find out.
A rash of some sort happens to about 5% of people who get the MMR vaccine. We know it and it is harmless even if it is a little scary.

Are you an anti-vaxxer?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:30 pm 
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dude i legit chortled at that one. i even shared the image with my dad. seriously WWN you knocked it out of the park on this one!

btw i think i heard this thread is kind of "a thing" now and i'm just going to say that i read one post in it since my last screed/manifesto/autistic-spazfest and it was that WWN sinatra meme and i think i'm going to prematurely exit stage left and quit while i'm ahead, you know like i won $20 on the complimentary chips at the casino.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:59 pm 
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Heather Skrocki, a 27-year-old barista at Good Harbor Coffee & Bakery in Traverse City, said vaccinations are a touchy subject at the popular gathering place following outbreaks of both pertussis and measles, diseases that can be easily prevented by vaccinations

"Up here we've had an issue with whooping cough, so it's a hot topic here — there's tensions between parents, and I even hear it in the coffee shop," Skrocki said.

Whooping cough on rise

Pertussis has been making a comeback across the country. Michigan Department of Community Health epidemiologists blame lack of vaccinations for 1,300 cases last year of the bacterial infection in the state. The highly contagious respiratory tract infection is marked by a severe hacking cough followed by a high-pitched intake of breath that sounds like "whoop," according to the Mayo Clinic.

Bob Swanson, director of the Division of Immunization with the Michigan Department of Community Health, said it's particularly worrisome for infants and children too young to have completed the full course of vaccinations.

Michigan's last death from whooping cough was an infant in 2012, he said. The disease also can spread to teenagers and adults whose immunity has faded and who could then pass it on to an infant.

"It's very important to make sure that everyone around that infant is vaccinated," Swanson said, noting that people with compromised immune systems, such as cancer patients, also are vulnerable.

A whooping cough outbreak that started in Traverse City in mid-October — and is still going on — has spread to children at 19 schools, Northwestern Michigan College as well as day cares and preschools, said Trute with the Grand Traverse County Health Department. To date, there have been 90 confirmed cases and 160 probable cases associated with the outbreak..


Grand Traverse Academy, the 1,200-student charter school where the outbreak began, closed for a week because of the high number of absences. Perhaps contributing to the wild-fire contagion, children who attend the school come from across the region, and 17 percent of the school's children have vaccination waivers. Grand Traverse Academy officials did not return calls from The News.

In the midst of that outbreak, Grand Traverse County health officials received word that two young adults in the region had come down with measles while traveling outside the country. The measles quickly spread to three more people, two adults and a child. None of the five had been vaccinated.



http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/l ... /22626301/


Last edited by Hussra on Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:04 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:12 pm 
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Palatine, wealthy and white? Maybe out where the kids go to Fremd but a lot of Palatine is pretty working-class and/or Hispanic.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:20 pm 
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Why is the kids prior to 15 months do not get MMR point ignored? How old are these "victims"?

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