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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:35 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
without the benefit of any scientific data to back it up
Um....

I think he means IN the article I posted.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:45 pm 
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Spaulding wrote:
No, not completely. I think they need to figure out who, why, and how it will effect people. Autoimmune diseases have risen and nobody knows why but drs will tell you it's not food and it's not vaccinations. I also don't think all reactions are being reported properly to find out if there is a link or not. There are good drs and bad ones. You seemingly put a lot of trust in them, I do not. They are in a shitty spot because they can't come out and say the vaccines can harm people but have no idea why. They also imo should not be running around saying they are great for everybody when they are not. The Lyme disease vaccine was pulled because of low demand, cost, and it's side effects. Gardasil and the one for the Rotavirus are under scrutiny currently. If these have negative effects on some, so what is to say other vaccines won't be harmful to certain people. They don't know what they don't know so to say.
You are acting like there are some great mysteries with vaccines. Please give some specific examples. The rash one you mentioned earlier is well known and it is harmless. The autism link has been proven to be junk science.
Spaulding wrote:
It's my opinion the government should never be allowed to force you to have any medial procedure or inject anything in to you or your child that you do not want. What are they going to do? Make it a law? Enforce it how? Take your kid, hold em down, and put what you don't want into them? Throw you or your kid in jail? Take your kid from you? Put all the non vaccinated kids in a camp? That's scary shit.
Well, I'd imagine the parents would be held liable if they did not vaccinate for measles and the kid got measles.

Spaulding wrote:
You also can not tell a growing population of people too bad so sad for your health problems caused by the vaccinations (or possibly caused) but now they won't get X disease so be happy. From my personal experience it's a group larger than it should be. My daughter had a moderate reaction and I don't think it was ever "reported" to anybody. It's enough to make a parent question what it's really doing to your child and is it better than not having it. Maybe it should be delayed, maybe it should never be administered but they owe it to those parents and kids to find out. I can't imagine what the parents of the severe reactions go through.
I had a reaction to the chickenpox vaccine too. I may not even have complete immunity. It was a known side effect and once again it was relatively harmless. That one ended up actually seeming like a mild case of chickenpox.

I honestly just don't understand why you think these things haven't been studied for decades and they still are constantly studying them.

Spaulding wrote:
If you find out who it will effect the people it's safe for will get vaccinations and it eliminates the panic for both sides. It makes no sense to continue down the path they are on.
They have done that. Decades of research and science has done this. This is the problem. You act like all of this stuff is basically just thrown together with no thought or care. This is why I brought it back to the fact that if the current recommended vaccines do not meet your required level of science then you should opt out of the entire medical system. Almost any surgery, medicine, or treatment will have higher risks of dangerous side effects.

That isn't hyperbole either. There are very few things in medicine more studied and tested than vaccines. Just like anything in medicine there are always chances of side effects but except in exceedingly rare circumstances the side effects are harmless.

This whole thing was because of something that was junk science.
Spaulding wrote:
I am anti flu shots.
I think everyone should get one but I understand people that don't feel they are necessary.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:51 pm 
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Spaulding wrote:

Autoimmune diseases have risen and nobody knows why but drs will tell you it's not food and it's not vaccinations.


Yes they do. Endocrine Disruptors.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:03 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
without the benefit of any scientific data to back it up
Um....

I think he means IN the article I posted.


Yes

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:04 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
Yes
Ok good, because you are the guy that claimed that our bodies would naturally have solved what vaccines "cured"*.

*-paraphrasing.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:04 pm 
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Rick you are stubborn and out of your fricking mind. If you have kids and they have a reaction to one of their shots I don't know that you'd be saying it's harmless and fine. Especially if it includes seizures or long term issues.

DannyB wrote:
Spaulding wrote:

Autoimmune diseases have risen and nobody knows why but drs will tell you it's not food and it's not vaccinations.


Yes they do. Endocrine Disruptors.


I meant in the general sense. What causes eczema? What causes Crohn's? What causes allergies? Nobody really knows.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:10 pm 
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I have a kid who had a reaction to a shot, it was harmless and fine actually.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:10 pm 
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Spaulding wrote:

I meant in the general sense. What causes eczema? What causes Crohn's? What causes allergies? Nobody really knows.


What if we did know what causes those things? What if we were able to create something that would eradicate those diseases from the earth? We could call it a vaccine and it would ensure no one ever had to suffer or die from these horrible diseases you are worried about. It would be great.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:13 pm 
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Big Chicagoan wrote:
Spaulding wrote:

I meant in the general sense. What causes eczema? What causes Crohn's? What causes allergies? Nobody really knows.


What if we did know what causes those things? What if we were able to create something that would eradicate those diseases from the earth? We could call it a vaccine and it would ensure no one ever had to suffer or die from these horrible diseases you are worried about. It would be great.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:13 pm 
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Oh snap!


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:14 pm 
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Spaulding wrote:
Rick you are stubborn and out of your fricking mind. If you have kids and they have a reaction to one of their shots I don't know that you'd be saying it's harmless and fine. Especially if it includes seizures or long term issues.

DannyB wrote:
Spaulding wrote:

Autoimmune diseases have risen and nobody knows why but drs will tell you it's not food and it's not vaccinations.


Yes they do. Endocrine Disruptors.


I meant in the general sense. What causes eczema? What causes Crohn's? What causes allergies? Nobody really knows.


I don't know, you're asking too much of me.

Man Hates Being Put In Position Where He Has To Think, Feel, Or Act

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AMARILLO, TX—Bemoaning the burdensome expectations regularly placed upon him by his family, friends, coworkers, and even strangers, local 38-year-old Howard Ridley expressed discomfort Tuesday with the number of situations in which he is asked to think, feel, or act—and sometimes do all three. “I swear, everywhere I go, people expect me to take some matter or another into consideration, display some sort of emotion in response, and perhaps even do something about it,” Ridley said in a press statement blasting what he described as the near-daily requests that he assess a situation before him and then react to it in a rational, or at least socially appropriate, manner. “I’m sick of it. Everyone needs to back off, give me some space, and let me respond to the outside world if and when I’m ready to do so.” Ridley added that if he were to cave in to the incessant demands on his behavior, the next thing you know, people would be pressuring him to actually talk and move.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:14 pm 
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Big Chicagoan wrote:
Spaulding wrote:

I meant in the general sense. What causes eczema? What causes Crohn's? What causes allergies? Nobody really knows.


What if we did know what causes those things? What if we were able to create something that would eradicate those diseases from the earth? We could call it a vaccine and it would ensure no one ever had to suffer or die from these horrible diseases you are worried about. It would be great.

Image

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:14 pm 
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Spaulding wrote:
Rick you are stubborn and out of your fricking mind. If you have kids and they have a reaction to one of their shots I don't know that you'd be saying it's harmless and fine. Especially if it includes seizures or long term issues.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC320893/

Even the seizures, while scary, are mostly harmless.

Please note this section:
Quote:
There will always remain some doubt about the “absolute” safety of childhood vaccines, specifically DTP (acellular or whole cell) and MMR. What Barlow et al.'s article and others help show is that any serious side-effects occur at an immeasurably small frequency, certainly smaller than the measurable effects of the illnesses they prevent. Changes in the vaccine formulation (e.g., whole cell to acellular) may also help to reduce side-effects, and further advances may help make current vaccines even safer.


I feel like a broken record, but once again, if vaccines are not "safe" enough for you then almost all medicine would not reach the level of safety that you require and you should opt out of it.

This is not me being stubborn. The science is OVERWHELMINGLY on my side here.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:15 pm 
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Q.Bovifs wrote:
Brick, you are wrong.

Over a decade ago, the CDC itself found a link between vaccines and autism - that they then tried to cover up.

Link?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:15 pm 
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Big Chicagoan wrote:
Spaulding wrote:

I meant in the general sense. What causes eczema? What causes Crohn's? What causes allergies? Nobody really knows.


What if we did know what causes those things? What if we were able to create something that would eradicate those diseases from the earth? We could call it a vaccine and it would ensure no one ever had to suffer or die from these horrible diseases you are worried about. It would be great.
:lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:21 pm 
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Douchebag wrote:
Q.Bovifs wrote:
Brick, you are wrong.

Over a decade ago, the CDC itself found a link between vaccines and autism - that they then tried to cover up.

Link?


It's the Brian Hooker story, which is the sun around which the anti-vaxxer thing revolves.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/ ... ity-ensues

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:21 pm 
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Douchebag wrote:
Q.Bovifs wrote:
Brick, you are wrong.

Over a decade ago, the CDC itself found a link between vaccines and autism - that they then tried to cover up.

Link?

Just check naturalnews.com or whatever nutter site that is.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:29 pm 
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Big Chicagoan wrote:
Spaulding wrote:

I meant in the general sense. What causes eczema? What causes Crohn's? What causes allergies? Nobody really knows.


What if we did know what causes those things? What if we were able to create something that would eradicate those diseases from the earth? We could call it a vaccine and it would ensure no one ever had to suffer or die from these horrible diseases you are worried about. It would be great.


What if it's the vaccines that causes those things? Maybe find a different way or formula? They took thimerosal out of everthing but the flu vaccines because American Academy of Pediatrics, and manufacturers said thimerosal should be reduced or eliminated in vaccines as a precautionary measure but not because it was harmful. :roll: Wouldn't it be great if they made truly safe vaccines and knew what they were doing?

They don't know what they don't know and if and when they figure it out they aren't going to admit to any wrong doing.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:35 pm 
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DannyB wrote:
Douchebag wrote:
Q.Bovifs wrote:
Brick, you are wrong.

Over a decade ago, the CDC itself found a link between vaccines and autism - that they then tried to cover up.

Link?


It's the Brian Hooker story, which is the sun around which the anti-vaxxer thing revolves.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/ ... ity-ensues

Nah, it's this one....


http://www.snopes.com/medical/disease/cdcwhistleblower.asp


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:35 pm 
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If something that 300 million people do negatively effects a couple hundred people isn't that pretty much as safe as it gets?

So I've had a conversation with an individual about how he won't vaccinate his kids a few weeks ago. He won't put harmful substances into his childs body, as he LIGHTS A FUCKING CIGARETTE IN THE KITCHEN. You fucking prick.

If you're not going to vax you kid, fine. Don't feed them any soda or refined sugars or barbeque or expose them to any VOC's by having upholstry or carpeting in your home or vehicle because those things are a lot more dangerous in the long term than a vaccine is.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:39 pm 
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Everyone should get vaccinated. I wish we didnt need the government to force it, but it seems we might


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:39 pm 
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Spaulding wrote:
What if it's the vaccines that causes those things? Maybe find a different way or formula? They took thimerosal out of everthing but the flu vaccines because American Academy of Pediatrics, and manufacturers said thimerosal should be reduced or eliminated in vaccines as a precautionary measure but not because it was harmful. :roll: Wouldn't it be great if they made truly safe vaccines and knew what they were doing?

They don't know what they don't know and if and when they figure it out they aren't going to admit to any wrong doing.
It is wikipedia but it is cited really well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy#Scientific_consensus

So virtually every credible medical society around the world is all in on this?

I'm trying to not be offensive here, but most of your thoughts in this thread sound completely made up.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:41 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
If something that 300 million people do negatively effects a couple hundred people isn't that pretty much as safe as it gets?



It effects more than a couple hundred but this is really the crux of it and what Rick is arguing. If he is fine with sacrificing the few to save the many that's what he should say. Not that they are safe and healthy and everybody needs to be fine with it.


Last edited by Spaulding on Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:45 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
If something that 300 million people do negatively effects a couple hundred people isn't that pretty much as safe as it gets?


The philosophy of Utility at work.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:46 pm 
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It's the internet. There's so many voices to listen to now. People used to just believe what their doctor told them (through the cloud of cigarette smoke) and went about their day.


I can understand why some get caught up in what they read online.


It was never a question for me. My dad was touting Jonas Salk as a "true hero" (as opposed to my favorite baseball players) since I was 5 years old.



How did this even start? (Ill look it up, just sayin)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:47 pm 
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Spaulding wrote:
That's what he should say not that they are safe and healthy and everybody needs to be fine with it.

Well he's not saying they're safe and healthy. I think he's been pretty honest about it.

ANY MEDICAL PROCEDURE carries risk. You're not going to find anything that doesn't carry risk. You need to weigh the risk/reward. Now, vaccines are about as safe as a medical procedure can possibly be. And the lifelong benefits greatly outweigh the risk. It's about as open and shut as it can be.

It's almost shocking that this is in debate. But this is the world we live in now.

Here's a question for you, what do you think causes more long term harm, the full compliment of vaccines or the air pollution in the city in which you live?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:48 pm 
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Spaulding wrote:
If he is fine with sacrificing the few to save the many.
That is not it.

An unvaccinated child is more likely to have health issues than a vaccinated one by a huge margin, and as more people go unvaccinated that puts both the vaccinated and unvaccinated even more at risk.

It isn't about sacrificing a few. It is about protecting everyone in the best possible manner.

Let's take a hypothetical newborn. Let's say that I told you he could either have:
1) A 1/10,000 chance of getting a disease with a good chance of killing him.
2) A 1/100,000,000 chance of the cure for the first one ends up leading to a long term health issue.
Note: These numbers are illustrative only.

No sane person would pick #1. This is what vaccines are doing.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:50 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
That's what he should say not that they are safe and healthy and everybody needs to be fine with it.

Well he's not saying they're safe and healthy. I think he's been pretty honest about it.

ANY MEDICAL PROCEDURE carries risk. You're not going to find anything that doesn't carry risk. You need to weigh the risk/reward. Now, vaccines are about as safe as a medical procedure can possibly be. And the lifelong benefits greatly outweigh the risk. It's about as open and shut as it can be.

It's almost shocking that this is in debate. But this is the world we live in now.

Here's a question for you, what do you think causes more long term harm, the full compliment of vaccines or the air pollution in the city in which you live?


If you have children, are you willing to sacrifice their health for the long term health of others?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:51 pm 
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Q.Bovifs wrote:



Quote:
2 comments:

AnonymousJuly 24, 2013 at 3:50 PM

"Take anything these sites say with a grain of salt"

Cool, I'll take your advice, starting with your site.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:52 pm 
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Q.Bovifs wrote:

I didnt mean to imply Snopes is all knowing. That is the most comprehensive re-telling of the whole thing I found though.


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