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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:25 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
lotta Cubs fans heavily invested in the guy's success


lotta Spx fans green with envy and it isn't even St Paddy's day

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:30 am 
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THE INQUISITOR wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
lotta Cubs fans heavily invested in the guy's success


lotta Spx fans green with envy and it isn't even St Paddy's day


got our own top 10 guy who achieved that status after only a few professional games...but pitching is such a common commodity these days you only have to plunk down $155 million for it

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:33 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
lotta Cubs fans heavily invested in the guy's success


the word "fan" comes from the word "fanatic". If you would like to go after these "fanatics", I would suggest "harder work", such as "shooting fish in a barrel". If you would rather deal with "avid watchers" of the Cubs, I "suggest" you deal with the few, the proud, the Cubs "aficionados."

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:28 pm 
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I'm sure One Post will change his tune when Bryant wins the Triple Crown and gets beat out for the WAR title by Andrelton Simmons hitting .268 with 12 homers. :lol:

Seriously, if you understand the DRS component of Baseball Reference's version of WAR, you know it's a comparison of players to others at the same position. Alfonso Soriano was among the leaders in left for several years and I believe was the top guy at least once. Most teams (especially in the NL) use left to park a monster slugger who really can't play anywhere else but there or first. Alex Gordon is a real exception in that he's a more than competent defender playing left field. As such, the gap between him and the average leftfielder is naturally quite large with gives him an inflated advantage within WAR.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:59 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
THE INQUISITOR wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
lotta Cubs fans heavily invested in the guy's success


lotta Spx fans green with envy and it isn't even St Paddy's day


got our own top 10 guy who achieved that status after only a few professional games...but pitching is such a common commodity these days you only have to plunk down $155 million for it


ALL prospects FAIL ..... what don't you understand about that.....

Meanwhile enjoy your ONE top 15 guy.... and let the Cubs fans enjoy their #1 , #3, #12 . #19, #38, #83 let me know when I should stop......

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:29 pm 
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THE INQUISITOR wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
THE INQUISITOR wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
lotta Cubs fans heavily invested in the guy's success


lotta Spx fans green with envy and it isn't even St Paddy's day


got our own top 10 guy who achieved that status after only a few professional games...but pitching is such a common commodity these days you only have to plunk down $155 million for it


ALL prospects FAIL ..... what don't you understand about that.....

Meanwhile enjoy your ONE top 15 guy.... and let the Cubs fans enjoy their #1 , #3, #12 . #19, #38, #83 let me know when I should stop......


Remember how excited you were last year to have Baez and Alcantara on that list?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:36 pm 
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THE INQUISITOR wrote:
ALL prospects FAIL ..... what don't you understand about that.....

Meanwhile enjoy your ONE top 15 guy.... and let the Cubs fans enjoy their #1 , #3, #12 . #19, #38, #83 let me know when I should stop......

I like my chances with the position player. One *pop* doesn't end their career.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:42 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
batter's box bomber like Jose Abreu

7 home runs in his last 271 PA.

He is now a singles and doubles hitter. Starlin Castro also has 7 HR in his last 290 PA.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:49 pm 
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IMU wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
batter's box bomber like Jose Abreu

7 home runs in his last 271 PA.

He is now a singles and doubles hitter. Starlin Castro also has 7 HR in his last 290 PA.

cycle wore off.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:52 pm 
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IMU wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
batter's box bomber like Jose Abreu

7 home runs in his last 271 PA.

He is now a singles and doubles hitter..


as long as he hits .350, he can hit all the singles and doubles he wants.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:56 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
IMU wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
batter's box bomber like Jose Abreu

7 home runs in his last 271 PA.

He is now a singles and doubles hitter..


as long as he hits .350, he can hit all the singles and doubles he wants.

He is a good hitter. For sure. If he had the skill to play a position on a baseball field, I'd want him on the Cubs.

But for half his career (the more recent half), he hasn't been a "power" guy. That is all I meant.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:01 pm 
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One Post wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
The defensive part of WAR fucks up the equation when guys are great fielders. At that point, being a great fielder seemingly becomes equal to being a great hitter, which is just not true.

Also guys who play multiple positions well (Zobrist) get overvalued.


Brett Lawrie has never been close to being a top ten player in MLB, but he's spent time in the WAR top ten.



Lawrie has never finished in the top ten for WAR. He's never even finished in the top ten in AL for WAR. Congratulations on being the valedictorian of the JORR instructional school of bullshit.

I guess if you are claiming he has "spent" time in the WAR top ten because at some certain point in a season he might have been in the top ten, then I think you also probably graduated from the JORR class of ignoring small sample sizes - part of the graduate curriculum.

Hey guys, WAR is stupid because Tuffy Rhodes "spent time" as the #1 WAR player!

:lol: You have no idea what you're talking about

Yes, I didnt say he FINISHED because he didnt. So dont attack something I didnt say

Lawrie spent significant time in the top 10 because defensive WAR is fucked up. This is widely accepted as a flaw in the system by baseball people.

The fact that you deny it shows your ignorance on WAR in general.


Last edited by rogers park bryan on Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:02 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I'm sure One Post will change his tune when Bryant wins the Triple Crown and gets beat out for the WAR title by Andrelton Simmons hitting .268 with 12 homers. :lol:

Seriously, if you understand the DRS component of Baseball Reference's version of WAR, you know it's a comparison of players to others at the same position. Alfonso Soriano was among the leaders in left for several years and I believe was the top guy at least once. Most teams (especially in the NL) use left to park a monster slugger who really can't play anywhere else but there or first. Alex Gordon is a real exception in that he's a more than competent defender playing left field. As such, the gap between him and the average leftfielder is naturally quite large with gives him an inflated advantage within WAR.

He clearly doesnt understand WAR.

It might be Bernstein


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:04 pm 
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Oh, hey look


Do some research before posting your moronic opinions, jackass




Brett Lawrie and the Problem with WAR


Note: This post is not intended to pick on Brett Lawrie. He’s a fine looking young player who has helped the Blue Jays to a solid 35-34 start in baseball’s toughest division, no small accomplishment. This post IS intended to point out that WAR is not what many writers today think it to be, and that’s a full-proof way to determine a players contributions relative to the rest of the league, and the size of the contract the player is being paid.


As of today, Brett Lawrie is the most overrated player in baseball, and its not even close. If you checked baseball-reference.com today, you saw something that is quite frankly shocking – Lawrie is rated, by WAR, as the most valuable player in the American League and the 2nd most valuable player in the MLB. Questions about the legitimacy of WAR as a statistic aside (that’s a post for another day and a can of worms I don’t want to open quite yet), this is quite frankly ludicrous.

Lawrie has a .287/.335/.419 triple slash with 7 homers and 29 at bats. A solid line for sure, but these aren’t even All-Star numbers. Lawrie also strikes out more than your league average hitter, walks less than the league average, and gets extra base hits at a less than league average clip. OPS+, a statistic that takes a hitter’s OPS and makes it league and park neutral, scores Lawrie at a 102, 3 total points above league average. His base running isn’t spectacular either. The Toronto 3rd baseman has only been successful on 9 of his 17 steal attempts, for a 53% success rate, the worst of any player in the AL with more than 10 steal attempts. So why is he rated so highly?

It all comes back to defense, where baseball-reference rates him as the best defensive player in baseball, which is highly questionable. Lawrie has made more plays in the field than any other 3rd baseman, assisting on a play 146 times, while recording 47 putouts, both excellent numbers. However, Lawrie has also made 10 errors this season, more than any other 3rd baseman, as he has a tendency to boot the easy plays just as much as he makes the spectacular. Baseball-reference.com, which uses very questionable defensive statistics like UZR to determine WAR, ranks Lawrie 1st in the league with a 3.0 dWAR, which is where most of his total value comes from.

To contrast, let’s take a look at a player that most observers would say is a below average defensive 3rd baseman, Miguel Cabrera, who has played only 20 more innings at 3rd this season than Lawrie has. Cabrera has actually been ok at the hot corner this season, assisting on 110 total plays as a 3rd baseman, and has 59 putouts, most in the AL, while making 7 total errors. If we add up the assists and putouts and subtract the errors, Cabrera has made 162 plays in the field, and Lawrie has made 183 plays in the field, for a difference of 21 total plays. Cabrera scores only a 0.3 dWAR on baseball-reference whereas Lawrie is credited with 2.7 more WAR because of only 21 total plays!! This is absolute lunacy, enough to render WAR completely irrelevant at this point of the season in my mind, especially when Cabrera has outhit Lawrie in nearly every category, batting .307/.365/.529 with an OPS+ of 141 and 14 homers. Who has really been more valuable? In my mind its Cabrera by a landslide, yet Lawrie’s 4.0 WAR has a sizable advantage on Cabrera’s 2.6.

The problem is that many of the defensive stats used to calculate WAR, UZR in particular, take a very large sample size, specifically 3 seasons of data, to provide conclusive results. So why are so many writers discussing WAR as the be-all-end-all statistic for determining who the best player in the league is? UZR may be considered the best defensive statistic we have today, but if it’s terribly flawed than why do so many have faith in it?

I think its because its easy. Its difficult to watch the games, notice the position the player is in before a ball is hit, and factor how difficult the play was to make. Its easy to see a little number like UZR or WAR on a sheet, and to say or write “Hey, I think that player is great, because these numbers tell me so.” We need to be more careful as fans and as writers, when looking at these statistics, because they blind us from the actual truth. Brett Lawrie isn’t the most valuable player in the American League. He has more statistically in common with players like Ichiro, and Juan Pierre, guys who shouldn’t make the All-Star game, than he does with superstars like Miguel Cabrera. WAR, WARP, and other statistics along this line can be very deceiving, so be careful the next time you see a writer turn to it while trying to make a point.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:05 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Do some research before posting your moronic opinions, jackass

That was uncalled for.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:07 pm 
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IMU wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Do some research before posting your moronic opinions, jackass

That was uncalled for.

No, it was called for.

Dont dismiss something as not an issue and say im the valedictorian of bullshit unless you KNOW im not right.


Im sorry if it's your mult. Whoever it is should try to study up on WAR before coming here and sounding ignorant.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:22 pm 
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You really want me to have a mult. I don't partake in those childish antics.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:55 pm 
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IMU wrote:
You really want me to have a mult. I don't partake in those childish antics.

No, I dont.

You posted twice defending posters who were seemingly mults. Its no big deal.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:56 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
IMU wrote:
You really want me to have a mult. I don't partake in those childish antics.

No, I dont.

You posted twice defending posters who were seemingly mults. Its no big deal.

IMU=Spmack

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:49 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
IMU wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Do some research before posting your moronic opinions, jackass

That was uncalled for.

No, it was called for.

Dont dismiss something as not an issue and say im the valedictorian of bullshit .


The Count of Monte Fisto

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:50 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
IMU wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Do some research before posting your moronic opinions, jackass

That was uncalled for.

No, it was called for.

Dont dismiss something as not an issue and say im the valedictorian of bullshit .


The Count of Monte Fisto

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:51 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Oh, hey look


Do some research before posting your moronic opinions, jackass




Brett Lawrie and the Problem with WAR


Note: This post is not intended to pick on Brett Lawrie. He’s a fine looking young player who has helped the Blue Jays to a solid 35-34 start in baseball’s toughest division, no small accomplishment. This post IS intended to point out that WAR is not what many writers today think it to be, and that’s a full-proof way to determine a players contributions relative to the rest of the league, and the size of the contract the player is being paid.


As of today, Brett Lawrie is the most overrated player in baseball, and its not even close. If you checked baseball-reference.com today, you saw something that is quite frankly shocking – Lawrie is rated, by WAR, as the most valuable player in the American League and the 2nd most valuable player in the MLB. Questions about the legitimacy of WAR as a statistic aside (that’s a post for another day and a can of worms I don’t want to open quite yet), this is quite frankly ludicrous.

Lawrie has a .287/.335/.419 triple slash with 7 homers and [i]29 at bats.
A solid line for sure, but these aren’t even All-Star numbers. Lawrie also strikes out more than your league average hitter, walks less than the league average, and gets extra base hits at a less than league average clip. OPS+, a statistic that takes a hitter’s OPS and makes it league and park neutral, scores Lawrie at a 102, 3 total points above league average. His base running isn’t spectacular either. The Toronto 3rd baseman has only been successful on 9 of his 17 steal attempts, for a 53% success rate, the worst of any player in the AL with more than 10 steal attempts. So why is he rated so highly?

It all comes back to defense, where baseball-reference rates him as the best defensive player in baseball, which is highly questionable. Lawrie has made more plays in the field than any other 3rd baseman, assisting on a play 146 times, while recording 47 putouts, both excellent numbers. However, Lawrie has also made 10 errors this season, more than any other 3rd baseman, as he has a tendency to boot the easy plays just as much as he makes the spectacular. Baseball-reference.com, which uses very questionable defensive statistics like UZR to determine WAR, ranks Lawrie 1st in the league with a 3.0 dWAR, which is where most of his total value comes from.

To contrast, let’s take a look at a player that most observers would say is a below average defensive 3rd baseman, Miguel Cabrera, who has played only 20 more innings at 3rd this season than Lawrie has. Cabrera has actually been ok at the hot corner this season, assisting on 110 total plays as a 3rd baseman, and has 59 putouts, most in the AL, while making 7 total errors. If we add up the assists and putouts and subtract the errors, Cabrera has made 162 plays in the field, and Lawrie has made 183 plays in the field, for a difference of 21 total plays. Cabrera scores only a 0.3 dWAR on baseball-reference whereas Lawrie is credited with 2.7 more WAR because of only 21 total plays!! This is absolute lunacy, enough to render WAR completely irrelevant at this point of the season in my mind, especially when Cabrera has outhit Lawrie in nearly every category, batting .307/.365/.529 with an OPS+ of 141 and 14 homers. Who has really been more valuable? In my mind its Cabrera by a landslide, yet Lawrie’s 4.0 WAR has a sizable advantage on Cabrera’s 2.6.

The problem is that many of the defensive stats used to calculate WAR, UZR in particular, take a very large sample size, specifically 3 seasons of data, to provide conclusive results. So why are so many writers discussing WAR as the be-all-end-all statistic for determining who the best player in the league is? UZR may be considered the best defensive statistic we have today, but if it’s terribly flawed than why do so many have faith in it?

I think its because its easy. Its difficult to watch the games, notice the position the player is in before a ball is hit, and factor how difficult the play was to make. Its easy to see a little number like UZR or WAR on a sheet, and to say or write “Hey, I think that player is great, because these numbers tell me so.” We need to be more careful as fans and as writers, when looking at these statistics, because they blind us from the actual truth. Brett Lawrie isn’t the most valuable player in the American League. He has more statistically in common with players like Ichiro, and Juan Pierre, guys who shouldn’t make the All-Star game, than he does with superstars like Miguel Cabrera. WAR, WARP, and other statistics along this line can be very deceiving, so be careful the next time you see a writer turn to it while trying to make a point.[/i]



I like how you didn't source the above material, probably because it is just another bullshit artist like yourself.


Remember how we talked about small sample sizes? Probably not, but small sample sizes are going to skew the data. See above emphasis added by me. Seems like an incredibly small sample size on both defense and offense.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:53 pm 
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One Post wrote:
I like how you didn't source the above material, probably because it is just another bullshit artist like yourself.

mlb.com

It is a blog, but still....an MLB sponsored blog.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:54 pm 
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IMU wrote:
One Post wrote:
I like how you didn't source the above material, probably because it is just another bullshit artist like yourself.

mlb.com

It is a blog, but still....an MLB sponsored blog.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
One Post is having a rough go.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:56 pm 
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One Post wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Oh, hey look


Do some research before posting your moronic opinions, jackass




Brett Lawrie and the Problem with WAR


Note: This post is not intended to pick on Brett Lawrie. He’s a fine looking young player who has helped the Blue Jays to a solid 35-34 start in baseball’s toughest division, no small accomplishment. This post IS intended to point out that WAR is not what many writers today think it to be, and that’s a full-proof way to determine a players contributions relative to the rest of the league, and the size of the contract the player is being paid.


As of today, Brett Lawrie is the most overrated player in baseball, and its not even close. If you checked baseball-reference.com today, you saw something that is quite frankly shocking – Lawrie is rated, by WAR, as the most valuable player in the American League and the 2nd most valuable player in the MLB. Questions about the legitimacy of WAR as a statistic aside (that’s a post for another day and a can of worms I don’t want to open quite yet), this is quite frankly ludicrous.

Lawrie has a .287/.335/.419 triple slash with 7 homers and [i]29 at bats.
A solid line for sure, but these aren’t even All-Star numbers. Lawrie also strikes out more than your league average hitter, walks less than the league average, and gets extra base hits at a less than league average clip. OPS+, a statistic that takes a hitter’s OPS and makes it league and park neutral, scores Lawrie at a 102, 3 total points above league average. His base running isn’t spectacular either. The Toronto 3rd baseman has only been successful on 9 of his 17 steal attempts, for a 53% success rate, the worst of any player in the AL with more than 10 steal attempts. So why is he rated so highly?

It all comes back to defense, where baseball-reference rates him as the best defensive player in baseball, which is highly questionable. Lawrie has made more plays in the field than any other 3rd baseman, assisting on a play 146 times, while recording 47 putouts, both excellent numbers. However, Lawrie has also made 10 errors this season, more than any other 3rd baseman, as he has a tendency to boot the easy plays just as much as he makes the spectacular. Baseball-reference.com, which uses very questionable defensive statistics like UZR to determine WAR, ranks Lawrie 1st in the league with a 3.0 dWAR, which is where most of his total value comes from.

To contrast, let’s take a look at a player that most observers would say is a below average defensive 3rd baseman, Miguel Cabrera, who has played only 20 more innings at 3rd this season than Lawrie has. Cabrera has actually been ok at the hot corner this season, assisting on 110 total plays as a 3rd baseman, and has 59 putouts, most in the AL, while making 7 total errors. If we add up the assists and putouts and subtract the errors, Cabrera has made 162 plays in the field, and Lawrie has made 183 plays in the field, for a difference of 21 total plays. Cabrera scores only a 0.3 dWAR on baseball-reference whereas Lawrie is credited with 2.7 more WAR because of only 21 total plays!! This is absolute lunacy, enough to render WAR completely irrelevant at this point of the season in my mind, especially when Cabrera has outhit Lawrie in nearly every category, batting .307/.365/.529 with an OPS+ of 141 and 14 homers. Who has really been more valuable? In my mind its Cabrera by a landslide, yet Lawrie’s 4.0 WAR has a sizable advantage on Cabrera’s 2.6.

The problem is that many of the defensive stats used to calculate WAR, UZR in particular, take a very large sample size, specifically 3 seasons of data, to provide conclusive results. So why are so many writers discussing WAR as the be-all-end-all statistic for determining who the best player in the league is? UZR may be considered the best defensive statistic we have today, but if it’s terribly flawed than why do so many have faith in it?

I think its because its easy. Its difficult to watch the games, notice the position the player is in before a ball is hit, and factor how difficult the play was to make. Its easy to see a little number like UZR or WAR on a sheet, and to say or write “Hey, I think that player is great, because these numbers tell me so.” We need to be more careful as fans and as writers, when looking at these statistics, because they blind us from the actual truth. Brett Lawrie isn’t the most valuable player in the American League. He has more statistically in common with players like Ichiro, and Juan Pierre, guys who shouldn’t make the All-Star game, than he does with superstars like Miguel Cabrera. WAR, WARP, and other statistics along this line can be very deceiving, so be careful the next time you see a writer turn to it while trying to make a point.[/i]



I like how you didn't source the above material, probably because it is just another bullshit artist like yourself.


Remember how we talked about small sample sizes? Probably not, but small sample sizes are going to skew the data. See above emphasis added by me. Seems like an incredibly small sample size on both defense and offense.

First of all, that 29 at bats is obviously a typo and they meant 29 RBI

The fact that that wasnt completly obvious to you judging by the other numbers is very telling


I dont know what to tell you. The defensive part of war is a problem and it's widely accepted.


Your argument seems to be "No, it's not"


Lawrie was in the top ten in WAR for a significant period of time. It was nothing like Tuffy Rhodes


I dont know how you can even be a fan of baseball and not know about the defensive WAR issue


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:59 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:

Remember how excited you were last year to have Baez and Alcantara on that list?


Not nearly as excited as the subdivision was over the #WINOW signing of those veterans like Felipe Paulino and Scott Downs...how did that work out for you?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:11 pm 
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The next time Lawrie hits 7 homers in 29 at-bats I'll admit he's the best player in baseball. Dumbass.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:17 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
One Post wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Oh, hey look


Do some research before posting your moronic opinions, jackass




Brett Lawrie and the Problem with WAR


Note: This post is not intended to pick on Brett Lawrie. He’s a fine looking young player who has helped the Blue Jays to a solid 35-34 start in baseball’s toughest division, no small accomplishment. This post IS intended to point out that WAR is not what many writers today think it to be, and that’s a full-proof way to determine a players contributions relative to the rest of the league, and the size of the contract the player is being paid.


As of today, Brett Lawrie is the most overrated player in baseball, and its not even close. If you checked baseball-reference.com today, you saw something that is quite frankly shocking – Lawrie is rated, by WAR, as the most valuable player in the American League and the 2nd most valuable player in the MLB. Questions about the legitimacy of WAR as a statistic aside (that’s a post for another day and a can of worms I don’t want to open quite yet), this is quite frankly ludicrous.

Lawrie has a .287/.335/.419 triple slash with 7 homers and [i]29 at bats.
A solid line for sure, but these aren’t even All-Star numbers. Lawrie also strikes out more than your league average hitter, walks less than the league average, and gets extra base hits at a less than league average clip. OPS+, a statistic that takes a hitter’s OPS and makes it league and park neutral, scores Lawrie at a 102, 3 total points above league average. His base running isn’t spectacular either. The Toronto 3rd baseman has only been successful on 9 of his 17 steal attempts, for a 53% success rate, the worst of any player in the AL with more than 10 steal attempts. So why is he rated so highly?

It all comes back to defense, where baseball-reference rates him as the best defensive player in baseball, which is highly questionable. Lawrie has made more plays in the field than any other 3rd baseman, assisting on a play 146 times, while recording 47 putouts, both excellent numbers. However, Lawrie has also made 10 errors this season, more than any other 3rd baseman, as he has a tendency to boot the easy plays just as much as he makes the spectacular. Baseball-reference.com, which uses very questionable defensive statistics like UZR to determine WAR, ranks Lawrie 1st in the league with a 3.0 dWAR, which is where most of his total value comes from.

To contrast, let’s take a look at a player that most observers would say is a below average defensive 3rd baseman, Miguel Cabrera, who has played only 20 more innings at 3rd this season than Lawrie has. Cabrera has actually been ok at the hot corner this season, assisting on 110 total plays as a 3rd baseman, and has 59 putouts, most in the AL, while making 7 total errors. If we add up the assists and putouts and subtract the errors, Cabrera has made 162 plays in the field, and Lawrie has made 183 plays in the field, for a difference of 21 total plays. Cabrera scores only a 0.3 dWAR on baseball-reference whereas Lawrie is credited with 2.7 more WAR because of only 21 total plays!! This is absolute lunacy, enough to render WAR completely irrelevant at this point of the season in my mind, especially when Cabrera has outhit Lawrie in nearly every category, batting .307/.365/.529 with an OPS+ of 141 and 14 homers. Who has really been more valuable? In my mind its Cabrera by a landslide, yet Lawrie’s 4.0 WAR has a sizable advantage on Cabrera’s 2.6.

The problem is that many of the defensive stats used to calculate WAR, UZR in particular, take a very large sample size, specifically 3 seasons of data, to provide conclusive results. So why are so many writers discussing WAR as the be-all-end-all statistic for determining who the best player in the league is? UZR may be considered the best defensive statistic we have today, but if it’s terribly flawed than why do so many have faith in it?

I think its because its easy. Its difficult to watch the games, notice the position the player is in before a ball is hit, and factor how difficult the play was to make. Its easy to see a little number like UZR or WAR on a sheet, and to say or write “Hey, I think that player is great, because these numbers tell me so.” We need to be more careful as fans and as writers, when looking at these statistics, because they blind us from the actual truth. Brett Lawrie isn’t the most valuable player in the American League. He has more statistically in common with players like Ichiro, and Juan Pierre, guys who shouldn’t make the All-Star game, than he does with superstars like Miguel Cabrera. WAR, WARP, and other statistics along this line can be very deceiving, so be careful the next time you see a writer turn to it while trying to make a point.[/i]



I like how you didn't source the above material, probably because it is just another bullshit artist like yourself.


Remember how we talked about small sample sizes? Probably not, but small sample sizes are going to skew the data. See above emphasis added by me. Seems like an incredibly small sample size on both defense and offense.

First of all, that 29 at bats is obviously a typo and they meant 29 RBI

The fact that that wasnt completly obvious to you judging by the other numbers is very telling


I dont know what to tell you. The defensive part of war is a problem and it's widely accepted.


Your argument seems to be "No, it's not"


Lawrie was in the top ten in WAR for a significant period of time. It was nothing like Tuffy Rhodes


I dont know how you can even be a fan of baseball and not know about the defensive WAR issue



Must be a real high quality piece of writing with errors like that. Well researched and properly edited I am sure.

I think we know where we all stand on this issue.

Is WAR a perfect measure of comparitive value? No of course not. Is it the best most accurate comparitive instrument we have at this point that encompasses all facets of the game. Sure is. I'll prefer to error on the side of the guys at fangraphs and/or baseball reference instead of the clown car of White Sox dumbass fans on CSFMB.com.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:26 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
The next time Lawrie hits 7 homers in 29 at-bats I'll admit he's the best player in baseball. Dumbass.



Looks like if JORR had a MVP vote in 2007, he would have Jack Cust squarely at or near the top of his ballot.

On May 3, 2007, the Padres traded Cust to the Oakland Athletics, although he was rumored to be joining Japan's Chiba Lotte Marines. The Athletics needed another designated hitter due to an injury to veteran Mike Piazza. Cust quickly endeared himself to A's fans by hitting 6 home runs in his first 7 games.

I mean to think that someone can't get red hot for 8-9 game is just foolish is just silly.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:27 pm 
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One Post is baseball long time guy.

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