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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:02 pm 
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"I'm not sayin. I'm just sayin."

Peter Gammons @pgammo · 4h 4 hours ago
Watching, reading the esteemed Jim Callis rank Cubs, Red Sox farm systems a tribute to Theo Epstein, those who work(and worked) with him...

Peter Gammons @pgammo · 20h 20 hours ago
Two bombs by Kris Bryant, one by Addison Russell...what a 7 year run it will be for the Cubs

Peter Gammons @pgammo · 22h 22 hours ago
John Malee says Jorge Soler hasn't swung at a pitch out of the strike zone all spring. Scary good. May be best of Cubs lot right now

https://twitter.com/pgammo


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:10 pm 
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Not much talk about worry that Rizzo batting under .150?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:19 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
Not much talk about worry that Rizzo batting under .150?

He has proven he can hit major league pitching. He will be fine, just a slow start.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:39 pm 
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But Kirkwood told me that even though Abreu is hitting nearly .500 this spring, he will suck this year because he hasn't homered yet!

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:40 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
But Kirkwood told me

that is the problem

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:51 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
Not much talk about worry that Rizzo batting under .150?


Spring Training stats are meaningless.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:57 pm 
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lashing out at me doesn't change the fact your lazy 1B forgot how to hit homers. not my fault he's too tired to restart his HGH cycle.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:45 pm 
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Matches Malone wrote:
"I'm not sayin. I'm just sayin."

Peter Gammons @pgammo · 4h 4 hours ago
Watching, reading the esteemed Jim Callis rank Cubs, Red Sox farm systems a tribute to Theo Epstein, those who work(and worked) with him...

Peter Gammons @pgammo · 20h 20 hours ago
Two bombs by Kris Bryant, one by Addison Russell...what a 7 year run it will be for the Cubs

Peter Gammons @pgammo · 22h 22 hours ago
John Malee says Jorge Soler hasn't swung at a pitch out of the strike zone all spring. Scary good. May be best of Cubs lot right now

https://twitter.com/pgammo


I predicted somewhere in these threads that Soler will be the best Cub by All-Star break.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:23 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:08 am 
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Players union must fight again as familiar story unfolds in Chicago
Ken Rosenthal

FOX Sports

MAR 22, 2015 8:47p ET SHARE 2 TWEET 9 1

Kris Bryant's debut might end up being similar to Mark Grace's.
MESA, ARIZ. —



In 1988, the Cubs chose the fading Leon Durham over red-hot rookie Mark Grace as their Opening Day first baseman. Grace went to the minors, only to return on May 2, forcing the trade of Durham 17 days later.
The players union stewed over the turn of events, believing that the Cubs started Grace in the minors to delay his arbitration eligibility by one year. Grace, in the recollection of one agent, became the “poster child” in the union’s fight during the 1990 labor talks to make 17 percent of the two-year players arbitration-eligible.
And now, as history repeats with another Cubs phenom, the union must fight again.
If Kris Bryant starts the season at Triple-A, the union should file a grievance to restore his lost service time, even though it would stand little chance of winning the case.
The old union leaders — Marvin Miller, Donald Fehr, et al — never backed down, always supporting players on issues of principle, regardless of the anticipated outcome.
The relationship between the players and owners is less combative now, to the benefit of all. But the union’s mission — to protect the rights of its players — remains an important part of the industry’s give-and-take.
New union chief Tony Clark should embrace the pending Bryant absurdity as the perfect opportunity to take a stand, knowing that bigger fights lie ahead with the collective-bargaining agreement expiring in 2016.
Bryant, 23, leads the majors with eight home runs this spring. He is one of the Cubs’ 25 best players, maybe their best position player, period. And yet, he is almost certain to follow the path of Grace before him, and start the season at Triple-A.

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Batting second: Jon Paul Morosi
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Dig in: Just a Bit Outside
Cubs president Theo Epstein says that the Bryant decision will be a baseball decision, and that the third baseman still must improve his defense. But it is not nearly that simple, as everyone in the industry knows.
If the Cubs postpone Bryant’s major-league arrival for at least 12 days, it will enable them to gain an additional year of control over the player before he becomes a free agent, according to baseball’s collective-bargaining agreement.
Why won’t Epstein simply acknowledge service-time considerations with Bryant? Presumably for the same reason that other executives follow the same script when dealing with the same situation: Concern that the union would use such remarks as grounds for a grievance.
So, the explanation for the act might trigger a grievance, but the actual act wouldn’t?
Makes no sense.
The refusal of executives to discuss the service-time question indicates that management has some degree of doubt about the legality of its position. The union’s argument would be that the Cubs are operating outside the spirit of the CBA, demoting Bryant not because he needs to improve as a player, but because they want control over him for an additional year.
The case law overwhelmingly favors the clubs, according to one source — as long as there is a reasonable basis for the decision, even if it is wrong, the club will prevail. No matter. A grievance would demonstrate to both the players and owners — louder than any verbal threats — that the new union leadership will not be a pushover come 2016.
Granted, a player’s spring home run total tells us only so much about his performance, particularly a player’s spring homer total in Arizona. Still, no major-league spring homer leader has failed to make an Opening Day roster since STATS LLC began tracking the data in 1996.
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Epstein points out that two players he helped develop — Red Sox second baseman Dustin Pedroia and Cubs first baseman Anthony Rizzo — benefited from significant time at Triple-A. But there also are examples of players who had fewer than Bryant’s 297 plate appearances at Triple-A — and became stars.
The list includes Mike Trout, Miguel Cabrera and Giancarlo Stanton, plus Albert Pujols, Justin Upton and many others. Bryant is at least two years older than all of those players were at the times of their debuts, and less of a defensive question than some. Pujols did not even have a set position his first season. Cabrera played three games in left field at Double-A before assuming that spot for the Marlins full time.
Meanwhile, Bryant’s teammate, Jorge Soler, had only 127 plate appearances at Triple-A before the Cubs promoted him last Aug. 27. The difference between Soler and Bryant, who did not receive a September call-up, is obvious. Soler signed a nine-year contract that began in 2012, so the Cubs need not worry about whether the will become a free agent in six or seven years.
Make no mistake: If I were Epstein, I would handle this exactly the same way, particularly knowing that Bryant’s agent, Scott Boras, generally prefers his clients to establish their values on the open market rather than accept long-term extensions.
Some Cubs veterans believe that the team should make a statement by keeping Bryant, and demonstrate that the franchise’s sole objective is to win a World Series for the first time since 1908. Well, do the math: The Cubs would sacrifice two weeks at the start of Bryant’s career to ensure keeping him through his age-29 season. Almost every team would make that trade — as long as it went unchallenged by the union.
A number of player agents express concern that the union has tolerated too many recent infringements — most notably, in baseball’s investigation of Biogenesis — without generating an adequate response.
The demotion of Bryant would amount to another hit. A strong union would respond.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:30 am 
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So, might as well file a grievance even though there's no chance of it going through just for the symbolism of it? Dumb.

Renegotiate this clause the next time the CBA comes due and regret the fact that you didn't have the foresight to see this occuring.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:37 am 
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This is the worst part of the players union. They've agreed to a certain set of rules. The owners abide by them. The union is still unhappy.

I don't care if Bryant hits a HR in every single plate appearance for the rest of the spring. See you in mid to late April.

Don't go with Boras next time.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:43 am 
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IMU wrote:
This is the worst part of the players union. They've agreed to a certain set of rules. The owners abide by them. The union is still unhappy.

I don't care if Bryant hits a HR in every single plate appearance for the rest of the spring. See you in mid to late April.

Don't go with Boras next time.



There's the rule and there's the spirit of the rule. The idea isn't to fuck with the guy's service time. How can you say a guy is your best player and send him down to the minors? They're going to do it and they're going to get away with it, but it isn't really the right thing to do.

Of course there isn't going to be sympathy for a guy who got a multimillion dollar bonus, but in reality it's just management fucking with labor.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:44 am 
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IMU wrote:
This is the worst part of the players union. They've agreed to a certain set of rules. The owners abide by them. The union is still unhappy.

I don't care if Bryant hits a HR in every single plate appearance for the rest of the spring. See you in mid to late April.

Don't go with Boras next time.
The rules also indicate that Bryant could bunt every plate appearance this season in response. I doubt the owners would be happy with that.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:49 am 
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This is one of those situations that seems like a huge deal now, but in a couple months it will seem like ancient history


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:50 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
This is the worst part of the players union. They've agreed to a certain set of rules. The owners abide by them. The union is still unhappy.

I don't care if Bryant hits a HR in every single plate appearance for the rest of the spring. See you in mid to late April.

Don't go with Boras next time.
The rules also indicate that Bryant could bunt every plate appearance this season in response. I doubt the owners would be happy with that.


Also not happy? His bank account.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:51 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
This is one of those situations that seems like a huge deal now, but in a couple months it will seem like ancient history


100% correct.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:52 am 
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Northside_Dan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
This is the worst part of the players union. They've agreed to a certain set of rules. The owners abide by them. The union is still unhappy.

I don't care if Bryant hits a HR in every single plate appearance for the rest of the spring. See you in mid to late April.

Don't go with Boras next time.
The rules also indicate that Bryant could bunt every plate appearance this season in response. I doubt the owners would be happy with that.


Also not happy? His bank account.


He wouldn't have to worry about that until he became arbitration eligible. That gives him a few seasons of bunting.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:52 am 
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Northside_Dan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
This is the worst part of the players union. They've agreed to a certain set of rules. The owners abide by them. The union is still unhappy.

I don't care if Bryant hits a HR in every single plate appearance for the rest of the spring. See you in mid to late April.

Don't go with Boras next time.
The rules also indicate that Bryant could bunt every plate appearance this season in response. I doubt the owners would be happy with that.


Also not happy? His bank account.
Why? He'd only do it this year.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:55 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
There's the rule and there's the spirit of the rule. The idea isn't to fuck with the guy's service time. How can you say a guy is your best player and send him down to the minors? They're going to do it and they're going to get away with it, but it isn't really the right thing to do.

Of course there isn't going to be sympathy for a guy who got a multimillion dollar bonus, but in reality it's just management fucking with labor.

No one is fucking with Kris Bryant's service time. No one is falsifying his time in the majors.

The Cubs have control over the player's roster situation. And if that player is not on the major league roster for a couple of weeks, they get to control his roster situation for an additional year. This is a baseball decision. The Cubs can choose to get an additional guaranteed 22 weeks of contribution from Kris Bryant if they do this.

No one said Kris Bryant is the Cubs' best player. Maybe Boras, but we ignore him. He has never taken a major league at-bat, as you've so fondly pointed out to us on this very message board a hundred times.

They are going to do it, and there is nothing to get away with. They are operating within the rules.
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
This is the worst part of the players union. They've agreed to a certain set of rules. The owners abide by them. The union is still unhappy.

I don't care if Bryant hits a HR in every single plate appearance for the rest of the spring. See you in mid to late April.

Don't go with Boras next time.
The rules also indicate that Bryant could bunt every plate appearance this season in response. I doubt the owners would be happy with that.

Let him. The Cubs would then respond in turn. It would not be in Kris Bryant's best interest to do that. It would be in Kris Bryant's best interest to play baseball where the Cubs tell him to.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:59 am 
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IMU wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
This is the worst part of the players union. They've agreed to a certain set of rules. The owners abide by them. The union is still unhappy.

I don't care if Bryant hits a HR in every single plate appearance for the rest of the spring. See you in mid to late April.

Don't go with Boras next time.
The rules also indicate that Bryant could bunt every plate appearance this season in response. I doubt the owners would be happy with that.

Let him. The Cubs would then respond in turn. It would not be in Kris Bryant's best interest to do that. It would be in Kris Bryant's best interest to play baseball where the Cubs tell him to.
What would the Cubs do? Why not just accept that he has the right to do so?

I guess if they tell him to not bunt any more, he could just swing poorly for the rest of the season. Are the Cubs going to release him?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:00 am 
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IMU wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
There's the rule and there's the spirit of the rule. The idea isn't to fuck with the guy's service time. How can you say a guy is your best player and send him down to the minors? They're going to do it and they're going to get away with it, but it isn't really the right thing to do.

Of course there isn't going to be sympathy for a guy who got a multimillion dollar bonus, but in reality it's just management fucking with labor.

No one is fucking with Kris Bryant's service time. No one is falsifying his time in the majors.

The Cubs have control over the player's roster situation. And if that player is not on the major league roster for a couple of weeks, they get to control his roster situation for an additional year. This is a baseball decision. The Cubs can choose to get an additional guaranteed 22 weeks of contribution from Kris Bryant if they do this.

No one said Kris Bryant is the Cubs' best player. Maybe Boras, but we ignore him. He has never taken a major league at-bat, as you've so fondly pointed out to us on this very message board a hundred times.

They are going to do it, and there is nothing to get away with. They are operating within the rules.
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
This is the worst part of the players union. They've agreed to a certain set of rules. The owners abide by them. The union is still unhappy.

I don't care if Bryant hits a HR in every single plate appearance for the rest of the spring. See you in mid to late April.

Don't go with Boras next time.
The rules also indicate that Bryant could bunt every plate appearance this season in response. I doubt the owners would be happy with that.

Let him. The Cubs would then respond in turn. It would not be in Kris Bryant's best interest to do that. It would be in Kris Bryant's best interest to play baseball where the Cubs tell him to.



I'd prefer to have this discussion with people who aren't Cub fans. Obviously you're incapable of being rational about the subject. If you're really going to insist it's a baseball decision, you're lying or ignorant. It's strictly about money. Again, of course they can do it. That isn't the point. They are fucking with his service time. He belongs on the big league roster.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:02 am 
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Just a side note: If Im Bryant, I tell Boras to chill on the "superstar" talk.

Just begging to be hated by veterans


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:04 am 
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So you've got a terrifically athletic 22 year old guy, works very hard, great attitude, struggles a bit with the glove. so the first plan of action is to move him to the outfield? I don't get it. Is he THAT bad?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:05 am 
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I think it is the right move by the Cubs to keep him down so they control him another year but if I'm Bryant I'm getting out of Chicago as soon as I can in response.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:07 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:


I'd prefer to have this discussion with people who aren't Cub fans. Obviously you're incapable of being rational about the subject. If you're really going to insist it's a baseball decision, you're lying or ignorant. It's strictly about money. Again, of course they can do it. That isn't the point. They are fucking with his service time. He belongs on the big league roster.


Did you feel that the Rays and Angels handled the Longoria and Trout situations incorrectly? Just curious.

I don't know if there's a 'right' answer. The Cubs are certainly within their right to hold him down for 12 days and I'm guessing will do that. On the other hand, people arguing that the first 9 games don't matter are flat out wrong. Ask any team that misses the playoffs by a game or two.

Keeping him down would be a reflection that the front office believes they are a year away from serious contention, which I agree with.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:08 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I think it is the right move by the Cubs to keep him down so they control him another year but if I'm Bryant I'm getting out of Chicago as soon as I can in response.


Well, I don't think that will be the case. If the Cubs throw the most money at him when that time comes, he'll stay.

But this is a bigger issue than just the Cubs/Bryant. And it's been done before. But this is a super high profile case. This is the kind of shit that comes with drafting waves and waves of Babe Fuckin' Ruths.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:09 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I think it is the right move by the Cubs to keep him down so they control him another year but if I'm Bryant I'm getting out of Chicago as soon as I can in response.


Well, I don't think that will be the case. If the Cubs throw the most money at him when that time comes, he'll stay.

But this is a bigger issue than just the Cubs/Bryant. And it's been done before. But this is a super high profile case. This is the kind of shit that comes with drafting waves and waves of Babe Fuckin' Ruths.
If he is really that good the Cubs won't be offering the most money by a significant margin.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:12 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I'd prefer to have this discussion with people who aren't Cub fans. Obviously you're incapable of being rational about the subject. If you're really going to insist it's a baseball decision, you're lying or ignorant. It's strictly about money. Again, of course they can do it. That isn't the point. They are fucking with his service time. He belongs on the big league roster.

It is a baseball decision. Do you want a good player for six years or for seven years?

There is no guarantee Kris Bryant sticks around after that, for all the money in the world. He may want to play in San Diego, or for a Las Vegas MLB team.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:13 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I think it is the right move by the Cubs to keep him down so they control him another year but if I'm Bryant I'm getting out of Chicago as soon as I can in response.


LOL


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